Joss Whedon is sexists!!111!

Discussion in 'THREAD ARCHIVES' started by Saito Hajime, May 5, 2015.

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  1. So recently Joss Whedon deleted his twitter account due to a significant degree of hate he received over the characterisation of Black Widow in Avengers 2: Age of Ultron. (Apparently not the case anymore) Those that were complaining claimed that her characterisation was sexist and labeled Joss Whedon as such.

    So the question is; do you believe the depiction of the character Black Widow (in particular her depiction in the most recent movie) is sexist?

    And just to be clear, whether it's possibly sexist or not, some of the things sent to Joss Whedon were vile and quite inexcusable.
    #1 Saito Hajime, May 5, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: May 7, 2015
  2. No. What. This is insane. A woman not being empowered isn't sexist. That... I... Just... What?

    Hulk has the power of being big and green. Iron man has the power of a super metal suit and infinite billion dollars. Captain America has a super serum. Thor is pretty much a literal God with a super hammer. Black Widow is... An attractive looking chick. With a gun. That probably can't hurt any of the aforementioned people.

    I mean, I don't think it's particularly good form, I think it's boring and they could have done more with the character, but Black Widow lacking real empowerment isn't sexist. Also, directing those comments at Joss fucking Whedon of all people: Creator of Summer Glau, a woman so insanely crazy strong that she could probably single handedly murder the entire crew of the Serenity if they ended up on the wrong end of her murder sprees.

    Like... Wow. Just... Entitled fucking idiots.
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    Oh wait they were serious?

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  4. Even disregarding what else he's done and created the whole notion of him being the one that's sexist even if it was sexist is misplaced. He's making a film based on source material and Black Widow is consistent to that material. If, even if the accusation of Black Widow being sexist was accurate, there was anyone to direct such public outcry to... it wouldn't even be Joss Whedon.

    Like, even if we give it being sexist, they're still wrong.
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  5. How fucking ironic.

    Hope he burns.


    Edit: Fuck him for caving to what basically equates to terrorism and hatred. All he's doing is giving them more ammo by backing down.
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  6. I'm getting the impression the people complaining haven't opened up a comic book before.

    Movie Marvel is fucking tame in comparison.
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  7. You damn well know they don't give two-shits about anything pre-2010 or so.
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  8. While I agree with what you said entirely, I'm not sure that her not having superpowers is the point that they were making/getting upset about.

    I can't say for sure the exact issue that all those commenters took with it, but I'm pretty sure it's Age of Ultron specifically they have a problem with. I found one recent opinion piece that might point to the issue at hand, but that might just be the one person's opinion.

    Simply put, I think it's something other than her lack of powers that people are getting het up about.
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  9. I can see why they found it sexist.


    After having her breakdown and becoming as vulnerable as the other guys, she turns to a man and asks him to run away with her. Bruce wants to be stoically alone, Tony wants to work with his hands, Cap wants to have an exercise, Thor wants to go through a spiritual journey, Clint hooks up with his family. But Natasha?

    She turns to a man to whisk her away. She opens up to him-- an act alone actually a display of strength-- but immediately asks to run away with him. She doesn't deal with being shaken up on her own like the others; she doesn't dig deep and stand back up. Ultimately she does keep fighting, but even at the end, she wants to run away--

    With a man.

    That's why they see it sexist.
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  10. Almost... almost as if it wasn't... y'know, a knee-jerk reaction.

  11. Okay. So if it was man doing that, would it be sexist at all? Because there are plenty of moments in film of men wanting to just run away too. Even to run away with a woman to have kids instead of dying in some horrible conflict.

    Again, I think the character could have been handled better. I would have liked to have seen her get something to put her on the same level of power as those around her, but let's look at things from her perspective for a minute here: She's basically fighting a war surrounded by demigods as a puny human with nothing more than a gun and the ability to fuck with people. Then along comes Scarlet Witch, who can do what she can do except on mental steroids. Wouldn't you basically feel useless and powerless, and want to run away? Start a family? Not become a nameless fatality in the middle of nowhere, not being able to do anything because you lack the superpowers that seemingly everyone around you has?

    If anything, I think this is probably the most human moment that Black Widow has ever had in the two films thus far. Except, because she's a woman, she's not allowed to be weak. She's not allowed to want to run away. Why? Because that's sexist now. Completely forget that Scarlet Witch was in the film doing badass shit, no, we have to focus on Black Widow--a horribly underpowered, fleshy human--wanting to run away.

    I will grant that from their perspective, it does look sexist, but when I put myself in the shoes of Black Widow--I would want to run away too. I'd be massively underpowered for what's going on around me. Throw in Scarlet Witch, and, well, there you go. Plus, make criticisms about the character all you want. I think she could have been done better, but I'm not going to call Joss Whedon a sexist for allowing a woman to show weakness and desiring to run away. Especially when there is another female character in the film who commands respect through sheer power.
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  12. Well, if you want to bring up the other female character, we can talk about how she also has a mental breakdown and needs another male character to snap her out of it...
  13. How she is a person* and needs another person* to help snap her out of it. Again: Reverse the genders, is this sexist? Y/N. If this script was honest to god sexist, I'm pretty sure there would be no Scarlet Witch.
  14. We see vulnerabilities in these characters in the way that only women are seen as vulnerable: meek, shrieking and shrinking away. We see them rescued, or seeking rescue. These are uniquely "feminine" tags in stories.

    I don't believe the script was intending to be sexist. We see Widow, a character that closely guards secrets, open up showing growth and that that particular vulnerability shows strength. However, you don't make a strong female character by simply making the genders interchangable. That's just a character that works with any gender. So what, to make strong female characters, all we need to do is insert vagina, bada-bing bada-boom, done?

    Naw bruh. And if your only qualifier for strong female character is the ability to kickass and chew bubblegum while wearing combat-boots with heels in them, then all you got is a trope, not a character.
  15. I have plans to see Age of Ultron tomorrow (well, technically today by my time zone), so I'll have to make a follow up post tomorrow on this.

    As for my current thoughts however?

    It's stupid as hell, but I'm also not surprised this happened.
    First to cover why this is stupid.

    -> Like highlighted above, this is a Movie Adaptation. Not the original content which would be to logically blame.
    -> Like also highlighted above, this is the guy whose made some very good female characters, and is also Anita's friend. So it's safe to assume that even *if* it was sexist, it most likely wasn't intentional.
    -> What exactly is there that's sexist to begin with? Is it the fact she's Attractive? Are Attractive women now sexist? Is it the fact she lacks super powers? Does this now make Batman sexist?

    As for why I'm not surprised this happened?
    Well as I just mentioned, he's a friend of Anita which indicates he's very big into social justice culture and very supportive of such mentality and reasoning.
    And when one allows themselves to be walked over by such mentality, they get shit on by it.

    I'm honestly surprised these (false) accusations haven't happened sooner.
    Thunderf00t made a video a while ago pointing out how a lot of the arguments that Joss Whedon tends to use can also be used against his own work.

  16. Um... What?

    Well, took less than 60 seconds to shoot that fish in the barrel.
    If you want to make a person strong independent of their gender? Abso-fucking-lutely, yes. If you want to make a strong female character, who is generally feminine? Metroid, Tomb Raider, and Babylon 5 are all fictional materials that pop into mind instantly that fit that. (Samus Aran, Laura Croft, and Susan Ivanova each respectively.)
    It's almost like that's my point: That women needing to depend on people, male or female, isn't particularly a mark of sexism so much as it is a mark of humanity. Also, that romance and friendships between the genders are exceptionally common. Thank you. :ferret:
  17. Actually, I think they're specifically claiming that the depiction of her in Age of Ultron is sexist. If you don't want spoilers, I'll just say I believe it's pertinent to a few scenes in the movie that portray her character a certain way. And as far as I can tell, this particular piece of characterization is unique to the movies (goodness knows it might be from some obscure Avengers comic from 1970 or something).
  18. I'll have to keep an eye out for that when I go to watch it then.
    Though in all honesty I might just get too distracted by the movie's epicness, the first one was brilliant. :3

  19. Funny. I thought that was character development.
  20. I've seen the movie and I can see why some people got upset. It wasn't just Widow stuff, but bleh phone typing, I'll expand on that later.

    In short though, I get some of the anger. Writing angry blog posts and such seems a reasonable action to me. Sending Joss Whedon threats of death and other violence? That was way too much, and those people are fucked in the head.
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