Is School Even Needed?

[Kagayours]

*Raises Hand shamefully*

I'm guilty of this myself. :P
Though give me another Cosmos show and I'll watch the hell out of it.

I never said there was anything wrong with watching those. :P I do it, too.

My point being that when you just let kids learn whatever on their own, they'll be much more inclined to just binge-watch shows like these instead of actually giving themselves assignments to do. Therefore, even if a kid has a huge interest in learning and looks up all this stuff by themselves, there's still none of the discipline that school teaches. No kid would self-assign essays, or any other semblance of assignments that need to get done by a certain time.

 

[Jorick]

And to make one comment regarding my initial post, I'd like to say also I live in an area of absolutely terrible schools, really. Even our private religious high schools have kids showing up drunk and high regularly, and the non religious schools have plenty of pregnant teen girls. I am aware these are some shit schools and it's somewhat unfair to go off those examples, but also understand I suggested online learning because it would've helped a lot of people I know.

My friend would've not been introduced to drugs, another friend of mine never would've thought she was pregnant. And you know what? They're experiencing all those horrible things, and honestly aren't learning very much that they'll benefit from. Yes, reform can fix that, but my personal feelings from those do play a very huge role in why I in some ways wish school wasn't even a thing. It's not because it's exactly hard, because learning to work is important, I just never have seen first hand the benefits you all tell me are there to have. I hope this sheds some light on what I'm saying.

Eh, if you think attending a shady school is the only reason your friends were exposed to drugs or had a teen pregnancy scare, then I have to assume you didn't think of what these people would be doing without school. Instead of spending ~7 hours each weekday being forced to go to school, they'd have free time to go do pretty much whatever without any form of supervision. I dunno about others here, but I always got into the most trouble with friends during long breaks from school, because we'd get bored and someone would suggest doing whatever dumb crap and then off we went. I know summer freedom was how one of my high school acquaintances got into meth, and how a handful of my friends had various sex-related woes and worries.

I get where you're coming from with your personal experiences, and it sucks that you seem to only have gotten the negatives of the system. I'd probably want schools to be abolished if that was my experience as well. Others of course had different experiences, and that's why the general sentiment of this thread has been "yeah there are problems, but abolishing school isn't the answer." :P

 

[Dervish]

Eh, if you think attending a shady school is the only reason your friends were exposed to drugs or had a teen pregnancy scare, then I have to assume you didn't think of what these people would be doing without school. Instead of spending ~7 hours each weekday being forced to go to school, they'd have free time to go do pretty much whatever without any form of supervision. I dunno about others here, but I always got into the most trouble with friends during long breaks from school, because we'd get bored and someone would suggest doing whatever dumb crap and then off we went. I know summer freedom was how one of my high school acquaintances got into meth, and how a handful of my friends had various sex-related woes and worries.

I get where you're coming from with your personal experiences, and it sucks that you seem to only have gotten the negatives of the system. I'd probably want schools to be abolished if that was my experience as well. Others of course had different experiences, and that's why the general sentiment of this thread has been "yeah there are problems, but abolishing school isn't the answer." :P

With all the dumbass things my friends and I did with fireworks in our summer breaks, I'm surprised none of us look like Two-Face from The Dark Knight.

 

[Gwazi Magnum]

@Gen. Gwazi Magnum The religious schools here are HUGE on abstinence, above anything else. It's their strictest policy, and they actually won't accept students with children, students who are known to be non-virgins, and they expel you for any sexual actions while you're enrolled, be it on or off campus. I actually once had a friend get yelled at because she kissed her older brother when he dropped her off and they thought he was her boyfriend >_>" So yes, to answer your question they are very harsh on rule of abstinence at all times.

Well, there's your problem then. :P
Those kind of scenarios would make any teen go nuts and jump on sex any chance they could.

I never said there was anything wrong with watching those. :P I do it, too.

My point being that when you just let kids learn whatever on their own, they'll be much more inclined to just binge-watch shows like these instead of actually giving themselves assignments to do. Therefore, even if a kid has a huge interest in learning and looks up all this stuff by themselves, there's still none of the discipline that school teaches. No kid would self-assign essays, or any other semblance of assignments that need to get done by a certain time.

I knew what you meant Kaga. :P
I was just saying that it's something I'm also guilty of.

 

[Hellis]

Education is so honestly over valued

I'm sorry what?

Do life experience give you ENGINEERS, Does life experience give you ARCHITECTS. Education does. Education took us out of the dark ages, education gave a venue to push past basic biological limitations. SCIENCE starts with EDUCATION.

 

[unanun]

@unanun You're right, you cannot teach those things, but what if a responsible kid doesn't understand finances, or how to pay bills and taxes, or how to write a proper letter? At least if there is a general life skills class as an option, they have the tools they need to function as an adult, and can ignore them if they choose to be lazy or don't want to use it. If school is about setting up for adult life, then that absolutely must be incorporated in some way.

I don't think you need to attend class to learn about paying bills and/or doing taxes. School in principle exists to convey higher level ideas. And for general life skills like writing letters and stuff .. I still think failing is the best way to learn how to write those.

 

[ElBell]

I don't think you need to attend class to learn about paying bills and/or doing taxes. School in principle exists to convey higher level ideas. And for general life skills like writing letters and stuff .. I still think failing is the best way to learn how to write those.

Well we simply differ here on opinion. I can't agree with this in really any sense. Those are just small examples, but there are so many real life skills I still need to learn, and school isn't helping me do that in the slightest.

I'm sorry what?

Do life experience give you ENGINEERS, Does life experience give you ARCHITECTS. Education does. Education took us out of the dark ages, education gave a venue to push past basic biological limitations. SCIENCE starts with EDUCATION.

This is WAY out of context here, so slow down. Yes, SOME jobs need education, but going through college, grad school, etc. is so not required for I'd estimate 80% of jobs. My point is, the belief we ALL require that is not what I think is right. It's great everyone aims for that, but guess what? Someone has to still man that register, and someone else probably still needs to go push carts back at a store too. Do those people need college degrees and crippling debt as horribly as someone aiming to be a doctor? Absolutely not. So don't twist what I said around, and rather address me then yell at me with caps.

 

[unanun]

Well we simply differ here on opinion. I can't agree with this in really any sense. Those are just small examples, but there are so many real life skills I still need to learn, and school isn't helping me do that in the slightest.

School teaches hard skills and facts, concepts that are complex enough that there are people, a.k.a. teachers, who train in the art of passing-things-on. For everything else, there's apprenticeship - whether it is from your parents or from a master, and the tried and true method of learning from failure.

At the end of the day the nature of specialty knowledge means that there must be a high student to teacher ratio.

 

[ElBell]

I don't see at all how that has to do with student to teacher ratio at all. And I'm seeing two major views here. One says school prepares us for adult life, which it doesn't at all, another saying its for cold hard facts, which is my issue with it. Obviously it cannot be for both, I just don't know what I'm even discussing anymore. I cannot make points with two different views against my own single view.

 

[Kagayours]

One says school prepares us for adult life, which it doesn't at all,

I think we've already established that it teaches a lot of social skills, particularly teaching you how to deal with people that you don't like (which is inevitable), and also get work done in a timely fashion (which is also inevitable).

And neither of these things happen with this free-form learning idea. As stated before, there's no incentive to get used to the idea of completing assignments by certain deadlines, so there's nothing to prepare you for having to learn to do things in a timely fashion, and also no chance to get used to the idea of someone being above you who gives you these assignments.

And as for the social thing, I know you said that there are other ways for kids to be social if school didn't exist, but, you know what? There's still nothing forcing them to be with people they don't like. It's a thousand times easier to avoid people you don't get along with with no school. And, yeah, it might be the cushier option, but it won't prepare kids for having to work with people they don't particularly like.

This combination of things would leave kids severely underprepared for life, having no work ethic, probably not educating themselves thoroughly enough, not being used to other people, especially those they dislike...

Just because school may not teach you as many life-skills as it could doesn't mean that it doesn't prepare you for adult life "at all". There are plenty of things it does to prepare you. The system might not be perfect, but kids are still learning a lot more life skills this way than they would be if they stayed home and watched YouTube all day.

 

[ElBell]

I meant at all in the sense of life skills such as taxes and stuff... This debate is a circle here. I've already said I was wrong in the nothing beneficial part. :/

 

[unanun]

The current curriculum necessitates a school type system because there are not enough adults fluent in the concepts of language, mathematics, social studies, and gym activities to teach their children everything, so you send them to a school to be taught by professionals.

If you are arguing that the current curriculum is useless, the point of school is two-fold: (1) a daycare type system which provides a microcosm through which kids learn some sort of social skill, (2) a way to give kids the breadth of knowledge that they don't think they will need, but will give them the foundation to make a career choice later on.

I think you are making the mistake in assuming that a child will know what they want from the beginning, and thus they can spend their formative years prepping themselves for college. Let me tell you, the other side (of higher education) is filled with people who don't know what they want, and it mostly comes from the sheer amount of choice you have in your life - which I lament my poor breadth of knowledge on every day.

And to be honest, taxes are pretty dead simple.

 

[Kagayours]

I meant at all in the sense of life skills such as taxes and stuff... This debate is a circle here. I've already said I was wrong in the nothing beneficial part. :/

My bad, then. I thought you meant "preparing for life" in a more general way, not in such specific means.

Anywho, if that's what's wrong with school, then it's a lot easier to just add such things than abolish the whole system. I actually had a short unit on paying taxes/bills and money management in my high school economics class, though I admit I really didn't like the way it was taught and I came out of it feeling like I really didn't learn much. Still, that's better than nothing, right? All it would've taken was a better teacher to turn that into a really useful lesson.

 

[ElBell]

Yes, that would be better than nothing. I'm actually jealous you had that opportunity if I'm honest. And again, I don't suggest we literally abolish the education system. But where it is now, I don't think it's all that helpful. I guess I more was illustrating my point? If that makes any sense. Serious reform is needed! Just how it is now, I think it's way more wrong than right and I don't want to defend a terribly broken and somewhat harmful system.

 

[Mundane Monster]

I think that school is needed but it needs to be seriously reformed and a life skills class needs to be adapted into the major curriculum. Also that whole STEM business (Science technology engineering mathematics) needs to include art/music and stop trivializing things like that.

 

[ElBell]

Honestly. Learning to play kickball in gym is not helping. Maybe I'm being too specific, but I still stand by a fair number of my original points about this.

 

[Kagayours]

Yes, that would be better than nothing. I'm actually jealous you had that opportunity if I'm honest. And again, I don't suggest we literally abolish the education system. But where it is now, I don't think it's all that helpful. I guess I more was illustrating my point? If that makes any sense. Serious reform is needed! Just how it is now, I think it's way more wrong than right and I don't want to defend a terribly broken and somewhat harmful system.

Oh, alright then. I thought you were still trying to argue that school should be completely abolished. My bad.

But yes, you're definitely right that reform is needed. I'm sure there's quite a long list of things about the education system in its current state that could really use some improvement. Still, I think I'll have to disagree on the "more wrong than right" bit. Yes, there are a lot of things wrong with education as-is, but, for reasons already established by just about everyone here, it's a lot better than no school at all.

 

[unanun]

Honestly. Learning to play kickball in gym is not helping. Maybe I'm being too specific, but I still stand by a fair number of my original points about this.

What would you exchange gym period for?

 

[Hellis]

Physical Education is really fucking important. Just putting that out there. Physical wellbeing is directly tied to mental health. I cannot stress this enough. Activating kids, getting them interested in physical hobbies is a very, very good thing.

 

[ElBell]

I'm not saying eliminate gym. Seriously guys, stop twisting what I'm saying and take things at face value. Don't put words in my mouth, it's annoying.

I'm asking why gym teaches us pointless things like playing games most of the time. They'd be way better off teaching things like how to swim in rougher water, or other more survival helping skills. And kicking a ball accurately doesn't do that all that well.

Believe me, as a student athlete, I would never say physical activity is pointless. It has at times kept me from serious issues. So again, don't be putting words in my mouth. I will type what I am saying, and any assumptions past that you make are on you and you don't need to shove that at me.