Is School Even Needed?

[Gwazi Magnum]

Wait, you people had to study for A's? o_o

In all seriousness though, in an attempt to clarify what you're saying do your views by any chance at least somewhat match those described in the video below?

Yes I know the video is not literally saying don't stay in school before anyone jumps on me.

Obviously we can google answers for almost anything now a days with how the internet has grown. How to do math problems, looking up poems and stories from famous writers past, even looking up everything we'd ever need to know about past events like wars or natural disasters. Now with that said, what do we need grade school for? What benefit does it now hold?

Yes, the Internet is a very useful tool to aid something in learning, and acts as quick easy access to a vast amount of information.
But it still lacks a number of element's compared to normal school, which I will be getting to below.

All school does beyond the internet (in my opinion) as a tool is force the kids with no learning desire to learn, and in the end, it doesn't help them all that much. Note me saying this is based on PERSONAL experience; I've only ever met kids more averted to work after forced school than ones who accept work as a reality. This even happened to me as well, until I was able to transfer to a highly flexible online school. And yes, this does mean I learn with the internet a hell of a lot.

Well being perfectly honest, that's life.
You aren't always going to enjoy learning stuff that you need to know in life, and I think we can all agree that it would be pretty bad if we simply allowed a bunch of people to never learn how to read because it wasn't fun for them.
Now, it should be noted that in these cases the Teachers are also failing in making the content engaging and interesting to their students, but a teacher failing to do that doesn't mean the info is now not worth learning.

And no, people won't spend mass hours on the Internet forcing themselves to learn things they don't like.
Hell I even have issues sitting down long enough to get all my Skyrim Mods to play nice, something I care significantly about.
Imagine that with a child, on something where there was no self interest or motivation?

Or for an example more people here can relate to, looking at an RP and going "Eh... I'm not in the right mood/state of mind to make this post now".
If you can't even rely on yourself to always dig into hobbies and stuff you enjoy, how can you expect it in an Academic setting when there's nothing making you learn the stuff?

Additionally, those who DO want to learn will be the ones prepared for life better. They'll know what is needed and avoid what is not, especially helpful to learn what they need for a career, and if something comes up they don't know or understand? They will have the searching skills to find what is needed in a matter of minutes, not over the course of a months long course full of other, probably useless things.

This is true, those with a desire to learn will always fare better than those who don't.
But that doesn't mean we should simply let the rest of the population go uneducated.
Neither that does it mean that we should only focus on educating a certain percentage of our youth.

Another thing people seem so stuck on with schools is socialization. But, that is what sports, events, and going out to do things does! And unlike school, if you meet someone on a sports team you don't like, it's much easier to avoid them. Bullying is a smaller issue as well, and even better is that from a very young age the student would interact with all ages, not just peers. Less risk of negative interactions like bullying, and ability to converse with all people? Sounds damn good to me.

All those social activities you listed require funding.
Funding where if not coming from the school needs to either come from charities (which are limited, and do not get a consistent/reliable donation amount) and families (many of which are poor/not well off).
So even strictly from a fun/recreational social standpoint, a lot of kids are going to miss out simply due to poverty if School ceases to be a thing.

And the negative interactions although despicable are also important, if you never learn to deal with people that you dislike you're going to be ill-equipped for the adult world.
You will have to deal with bossess, co-workers, nasty customers etc. that you don't like or get along with, and you need to have the discipline to handle them.
This is exposure you won't have if you don't to go school.

Granted you *could* make the argument that you meet shitty people online all the time. But that also has two flaws to it.

1. You not dealing with them physically, there's a lot of methods one can use to annoy you RL that they can't use behind a computer screen.
2. People online tend to be very liberal with the mute, block, kick and report buttons of people they dislike. That's not learning to deal with other people, that's hiding/shying away from it.

Now in the end, School has a ton of issues.
But nothing is ever broken, and if we tore stuff down simply because it had flaws then we'd never get anywhere in life or as a civilization.

Unless you really know what you're doing, it's better to stick the kid in the educational system and guide them through it.

I've been homeschooled during Grade 6, and a High School friend of mine was homeschooled from about Grade 2 right till the end of Grade 8.
He and I have both turned out pretty well.

However, I also have another friend from my Autism therapy days who has been homeschooled ever since Grade 3, is 18 now and has never went back to Public School.
And in his case he's been paying for it quite severely.

In my case it was ran by current Autism Therapists who were also trained professional teachers. The main Academic topics of focus were Math, Science and History. However the real main focus was honestly self-esteem, for the three years prior I was in a school where bullying exaggerated to the point that my self esteem was all but shattered (note this bullying was outright reinforced by a teacher there) , so the goal of the home school was to keep up caught up academically, but repair self esteem to the point where come Grade 7 I would be fine to go back into the Public School system, and it worked.

In my High School Friends case, it was also as a retreat/pull away from shitty situations. Mainly physically dangerous (hospital potential I believe) bullying, and outright abusive and neglectful staff. In fact the school had a case where their air conditioning was outright broken, so students were boiling alive in the school. Parents got together and raised money for the school so that they could fix it and the students wouldn't be exposed to such ridiculous heat. The staff went ahead and spent it on new computers for the Teachers. So he ended up being pulled, and taught all the academic subjects by most of his family members taking turns, and was then sent back when it was time for High School. It should be noted he pulled consistent 80's and 90's in High School without any need to study, and is now in college to be a Car Mechanic.

While the Autism Therapy Friend? His was a lot more censoring in nature, essentially what happened was the whole matter of "Didn't like being taught stuff he didn't care for" combined with "It's hard".
And this home school transition also ended up being an Autism Therapy replacement, because he wasn't liking being told stuff like Autistic stimming isn't a good thing to have.
By all intents and purposes, the home school in his case started off the same as mine (despite the 3 year difference his first year of home school was as an occasional classmate of mine) but it quickly warped after that year into a safe zone and circle jerk. Everything was fun and games, if something was stressful they didn't need to worry about it, essentially everything was done to send the kids home with a smile on their face, rather than any actual knowledge.

Fast forward to today?
Issues will still pop up such as shouting, screaming and storming out in a D&D game over a character vs character fight.
Simply because he was never taught any kind of self-discipline or control.

Now to be fair there is an obvious difference here, me and my high school friend were there for a limited amount of time and were in the public school system for all of high school.
While my friend from Autism Therapy was never put back into public school.

But there's also another big difference here, two also made efforts to work on academics, while the third was more built as a "Don't worry, be happy" sort of thing.
So basically what I'm getting at is Home School does have a place, it can be useful.
But it needs to be used wisely, sensibly, you need to remember that Academics are a thing, and it can't be permanent. You need to be sent into the public school system again at some point, because the exposure is very important. Plus the obvious factor of High School offers a ton of courses, programs etc that no home school can scrap the funds, room or space to provide.

 

[ElBell]

I will take a look at that video in the morning and see, as well as maybe try again posting my thoughts. I kinda was hasty in my post earlier as I was catching a passing thought that sounded like a good thread. Not always the best way to bring up such a serious topic :P

 

[Hatsune Candy]

I wouldn't say that school isn't needed, but I would definitely say that it's in need of some change.

 

[Zen]

- My grandmother never got to go to high school because she is a woman. Her younger brother got to go and he makes much more money than her, and is generally more intelligent. She cannot read or write very well. When she goes shopping she has to rely on me or someone else in the family to read her shopping labels. She cannot read documents, she cannot understand what people are saying to her, and relies heavily on superstition to understand the world. She is spoon fed by the news; she lacks the intellectual capacity to question what is being told to her. I've tried to teach her how to use the internet, but when she can't read or write in English, how is she even going to use it?

- History has shown us that those who are wealthy can afford to send their children to school. What does that say about the value of an education? The fact that education is required for children in the United States (and in other countries) is a spectacular feat.

- Some ancient philosophers like Socrates and Aristophanes saw the merits of an education, and even stated (or suggested) that women should receive an education as well because it would help improve society.

- And yes Unanun is correct in saying that there are some things the internet cannot provide. Have you looked at the websites that offer free courses, like Coursera? Their class selections are abysmal. And yes, I do use CrashCourse, DiscoveryNews, and TedEd for educational purposes, but I don't think those videos can simulate what is needed in a class room environment. It's not like reading the text yourself, or having a teacher or your peers there to guide you in difficult subjects. I would say that the internet is supplemental to teaching a child, but could never replace the classroom setting.

HOWEVER...

I do think the educational system needs to be revamped tremendously. I detest the fact that the United States' educational system is lacking in various fields. I don't think grades and standardized testing are the best way to judge a person's intelligence, although I wouldn't rule them out either. Yes, I agree bullying does exist in school, but unfortunately it exists in the work environment too. And in a work environment there is a lot more to lose, so I would advise those who are being bullied to try and solve the situation before you enter the work force.

Yeah it sucks to be forced to go to school, but at the same time, there are a LOT -- and I would guess to say -- billions of people before you who are long gone that would have killed for the opportunity to sit at a desk, and be educated.

 

[Brovo]

I will take a look at that video in the morning and see, as well as maybe try again posting my thoughts. I kinda was hasty in my post earlier as I was catching a passing thought that sounded like a good thread. Not always the best way to bring up such a serious topic :P

No, but the fact that you're trying definitely counts for something. Apologies for my earlier snide remark.

 

[Jorick]

I don't have time time to read and reply to you all right now as much as I want, but you're missing some of my points or not quite taking them as I intended them.

My point is, we don't all need so much crazy advance stuff. It's not generally practical to know so much math, or to know all about the wars over history in incredible detail like we're expected to. Yes, basics like adding and subtracting and graphing help, and it's important to learn some basic biology, but not even my doctor mother needed all the math she was forced into learning. All her social studies learning is useless too, wasted time and energy.

I agree on needing reform, badly so. That's another debate I plan to later post though, so keep that topic lighter for now. My points only stand with the way school is now, particularly the ones I've been involved with. If it was fixed up a bit more, well a lot more, I know I would feel very different about it all. And of course, your school experiences can be drastically different.

I also find it fascinating you all assumed online courses, as organized classes. I am talking about 100% free learning after incredibly basic things. No classes whatsoever. More conditioning from the system I would guess... But my point is that then it comes down much more to a motivation level, and yes, we still would get doctors and lawyers from that. But only ones who actually gave a damn to get there.

There's no doubt about not everyone needing the advanced stuff. Why in the hell would anyone not going into STEM fields need to learn calculus or trig? Even a lot of those, as you noted with biology, don't need that kind of math. History and social studies topics are good to know on a general level, but when it's reduced to basic fact memorization and regurgitation they become pointless and soulless pursuits. That's a huge point of why the school system needs to be fixed up. The major problem though is that school serves a multitude of secondary functions aside from education, and the learning time has to be filled somehow. It's no problem to keep the first handful of grades to learning just useful basics, but after that you kind of have to branch out to give the kids something to do. The intent with the mandatory broad stuff is the same as the intent behind mandatory college classes that have nothing to do with one's degree: a rounded education is better than a specific one. Ideally starting from high school there should be a beginning of the specialization that is actually useful, so those intending to go to college get prepared for that and those intending to go right into the workforce get an education more suited to that, but that's another reform thing. In essence though, yeah, you're right that schools currently throw a lot of useless crap at students, and that is indeed a problem.

100% free learning rather than online schooling would be, frankly, disastrous. It's a lovely idea, and part of me wishes that could be the way things work and that things would actually work under that system. That same part of me also loves the idea of pure communism. There are ideas that are grand and wonderful on paper that fall apart when they come into contact with real human nature. Y'know those points I made about how dropping back to just some kind of online schooling would cause a huge lack of skilled workers in a couple generations? This would be even worse. Just think for a moment how many people aged 10-18 spend their time online in summer, for instance. I would wager that the amount of them who spend any time at all intentionally pursuing learning of some kind is a tiny fraction of them. Adults are really awful at keeping on task when they have the fun distractions of the internet on hand, and the average minor is probably worse than the average adult at that, so it's just not a workable idea. Structure and reinforcement are rather important parts to learning, so completely removing structure and making reinforcement all up to the learner would lead to bad times.

 

[Brovo]

I suppose if we want to talk about how to fix rather than dispose of the current system, the first thing I'd propose is arranging children by competency. Let a kid who does math really well pursue math, don't let their lacklustre English hold them back from what they're really good at: The modern world works on specialists, so it's nonsensical to artificially limit the ultimate capacity of those participating within the system.

Also, learning about how one's own government works would be nice. The Canadian education system actually teaches you how it works in Social Studies, and the differences it has from the American Electoral College system, so it's not all doom and gloom up here. Our math is quite silly though. Beyond Trig which I learned in tenth grade I still haven't applied anything else that I learned, and English should have taught me how to write and format proper essays and do objective research rather than teach me Shakespeare: A man who is so far removed from modern society that you need a translation index on each page simply to understand what he's saying.

The arts should be optional. Not everyone is a creative arts kind of person, and the sheer uselessness of Liberal Arts and Philosophy degrees in the real world should emphasize that we don't value art the same way we did when public school was created.

Problem is: We need this system, it's just that the system in its present state is flawed and in dire need of repairs. Double up the issue with several different political pundits attempting to shove their idiocy in (ex: Creationists) and fixing the system is not nearly as easy as it sounds.

 

[Gwazi Magnum]

School System fixes I would suggest:

Edit: Seeing posts below I'm realizing that globally we probably experience different mandatory classes. This is what it looked like for me in High School.

Grade 9: 2 Free, English, Math, Gym, Science, French, Geography
Grade 10: 3 Free, English, Math, Science, History, Career/Civics, Art Credit
Grade 11: 6 Free, English, Math
Grade 12: 7 Free, English

• Make more room for electives at the early Grades. I mean seriously, Grade 9 = 6 Mandatory, 2 Electives. High School is when you're supposed to start specializing and finding your click, not being ham-fisted with pointless information. Now, I'll note further below I start to suggest for a number of other mandatory classes, which would directly conflict with this point, but that leads me to my second point.
• Make Grade 13 open to all. I did not like at all how my old High School made Grade 13 something to "apply" to, where only the better off students would be accepted. If people need an extra year to dabble in courses to find themselves out then let them! Hell, in all likelihood the people who need the Grade 13 are probably those who are struggling in classes still looking for where they excel. You kill the entire point of a Grade 13 by denying those people a chance to get more educated. Or maybe make Grade 13 required, give people a little bit more time to self discover and grow up before being thrown into the adult world outright. Or if other Mandatory classes becomes a bit much, the extra year can serve as much needed time to make it so electives don't suffer as a result.
• Only Grade 9 English is mandatory. Seriously, Grade's 9-12 are literal duplicates, you take one you take them all.
• Not get all obsessive over teaching Cursive Writing. This was actually something my 5th Grade teacher broke the rules on, he recognized I wasn't good at doing cursive, but I was great at doing work on a computer. So he decided to not worry about teaching me cursive writing, and let me mail in my assignments. His reasoning being that friends he had (including professions like doctors) couldn't write for crap either, but it didn't matter cause they could type everything. And let's be honest, technology is becoming more and more dominant every day.
• No Mandatory Secondary Language. Yes I know a decent amount of people speak it, but majority of the time (at least here in Canada) French communities and English communities are rather separated save for one or two provinces. You do not need to make students suffer 1000's of hours of poor grades to learn a language that they will never use with the people they interact with.
• Likewise only make Grade 9 Math mandatory. Other forms may have some more uses depending on their field, but many people get by without out. Some individuals benefiting doesn't warrant forcing it on the majority that it doesn't benefit.
• Math Teachers need to be more open and honest about what the math leads to in the real world. My teacher refused to answer this question taking a stance of "Just do your work, it's Math so it's useful". Not only killing any motivation with the current math, but effectively driving students away from math electives they might have actually wanted to take if they knew the uses of it.
• No Mandatory Art Classes. Like Brovo said, not everyone is a creative arts person, not everyone cares for it, and it's not relevant for a ton of fields out there. And being held back because you can't draw or sing well enough is stupid.
• Replace Mandatory Gym with Sex-Ed. Seriously, Gym class was pointless and the fact they only put two weeks of it aside for sex ed is terrible.
• Sex-Ed also should try to address the joys of sex. The majority of time people have safe sex they are doing it for fun, enjoyment and to share passion. The fact we ignore this completely when teaching kids about sex is rather concerning.
• Science needs less table of elements memorization and more time focused on stuff like Evolution. Those units got skimmed by way too much, and if you're going into Science you should (in my mind) be learning about your biological history and the world around us. Not the exact symbols and electrons that each element possess.
• History classes need to be more on actual History, and not stuff like "Back in the day people had Beaver Hats", "One day someone made Bear Stew... It made people sick", "This was the women basketball team 100 years ago". In what situation is any of that information useful? I mean I know I live in Canada and our history is limited but come on!
• Mandatory Religion course, and no I don't mean on a specific Religion. I mean about all religions, may you agree with religion or not (like myself) it has played a huge role in human history, culture and society. We're still surrounded by it, and having a basic understanding of it could do wonders. Plus it allows people to not simply be limited by whatever their Parents tell them behind closed doors.
• Like wise, Mandatory Mental Illness course, several most likely. Mental Illness is everywhere, it's becoming more common to find someone with a mental illness now than without one. We need to get people aware and educated on these matters.
• While we're at it let's throw in something about things like LGBT, world cultures etc. as well. Humans are a social species, you will interact with others all the time in your working life. Being armed with a better understanding of another will only improve co-operation, performance and the morale of all parties. Effectively, we need a Social Studies curriculum.
• Better education on our laws. Seriously, not knowing our laws can be a very bad thing. Canada does fare a bit better here thankfully, but at least where I lived they focused more on what political parties there were, and how a court meeting operated than anything else. It was definitely lacking in teaching people their fundamental rights, laws that protect them etc.
• Special support/education needs to be more accepted. School's one size fit's all philosophy does no favors, it screws over a ton of children, but those with special needs especially hard. So when a documented and proven therapy technique comes up and offers to help with the school, to work with the staff to make the students learning the best possible? The Schools should be welcoming new methods of teaching with open arms, not dragging their feet in because it's something different.
• Not being as controlling over the students there. The point of High School is to prepare people for the working world or for college/university. We aren't doing that by hounding them for the smallest of things such as getting up to use the washroom without asking. If we want to prepare the students to be adults, we need to treat them as adults, not children that need to have their hand held with everything and under constant surveillance.
• Extra Curricular funding can't be so focused/specialized. In my school the majority of cash was thrown at the Music Clubs, with the majority of leftovers given to the Sport Kids. Which basically meant if you didn't want to sing or throw a ball there was no activities for you to get involved in. There needs to be more even funding in more fields, so more students are involves, get motivated to learn more, get exposed to more things etc.
• Mandatory Parenting Class, this one is honestly more iffy with me. But there are enough people to run into parenting recklessly like it's some sort of game that there should be some class to slap the realism of child raising into them ahead of time. If nothing else this helps act as quality assurance that the following generation will fare better.
• IEPs for everyone. This one's more of a giant overhaul, but we need to get out of the mentality that an IEP is for the odd individual. Everyone learns differently, everyone flourishes under different kinds of assistance, different teaching styles etc. If we learn to simply help every student get in the best situation for them to succeed, rather than reserving it for a select few (which also paints them to be seen as stupid, harassed, criticized etc.) everyone will fair better, both academically and socially.
• Set Camera's around the school. All too often does a child get beat up, bullied etc on campus but the school does nothing about it because no teacher was there to witness it. Set up cameras, have it so when this stuff happens there's video proof of it. Plus it can help catch bullies where the victim might decided to stay quiet about it out of either pride or fear of being a rat.
• After School Childcare should be an offered and available thing. Just like mentioned before by Jorick with school acting like a daycare, but remember that Parents often don't work the hours that school is open for. They may very well need different hours for their kids to be looked after on. Now, I'm not saying this child care is strictly stick them in a room and play. Make learning part of it, homework aid programs, tutoring services, time to get counselling etc. Treat it a lot like a Study Time class + Optional extra classes if teachers are willing to provide. That can do wonders for both looking after children for parents, and improving the value of their education. Also remember that normal extra-circulars would also still be a thing if the student would rather take part in those instead.
• Better Parent-Teacher interaction. Granted this relies way too much on competent and caring parents, but assuming that a child's parents are competent and caring, there should be easy ways for the parents to talk with the teacher. Parents get a better understanding of academic life, Teacher get's a better understanding of the home life, everyone wins.
• Pay Teachers more, these are literally the people who are guiding and training our future generations. They are the people responsible for our entire future work force. The fact we pay them minimal amounts for this is atrocious. And the fact we give them minimal respect for this is also rather barbaric.

That's all I can think of for now off the top of my head.
Might think of more tomorrow.

• Get rid of that stupid "I pull my student from this unit" thing for Parents when it's Sex Ed. I'm sorry, but your lack of ability to teach your kids about this and make them comfortable about it is not a license to stop the school from doing so.
• Teach kids about life skills such as paying taxes. I had a class that tried to do this, but got too focused on teaching people how to do proper interviews (which in itself was rushed) to focus on time on stuff like taxes. (Credit to ElBell to pointing this out).
• Better aid/assitance on finding post-secondary education programs and schools (Also Credit to ElBell for pointing this out).
• They need to be more able to let children experience failure without it having academic penalty. A major part of learning is messing up and starting up again, Schools at the moment do the total opposite of that by punishing every failure and making people afraid to try anything potentially risky.

 

[Alan]

We spend the early years of our lives loathing school, only to grow up and regret not taking it seriously.

Take the opportunities being given to you, embrace it and learn from it. Don't take it for granted.

Yes, our education system -- particularly here in the United States -- is in dire need of reform and improvement. That doesn't make the internet a better teacher than the ones you have at school.

 

[ElBell]

I agree with most of what @Gen. Gwazi Magnum said, but I think the mental illness, sexuality awareness, and maybe even some anti-bullying things could all be an one to two year course of 'General Sensitivity'. Or of course, probably something better named because that's not so appealing xD I also hugely agree sex-ed needs to actually educate and not scare the want out of every person, lol. But then again I also think a longer chapter on it in Health class is enough if Health (which is very important in my mind) were to be a full year course.

I really especially feel like we need more general life classes, and that's part of why school is not so helpful to me. Thank god my online school offers the types of courses Gwazi mentioned (I take a parenting 101 class over the summer and a family finance class the following year if all goes well), and that is just so important, and I want more students to have those even be available. I mean, if school is preparing us for life as an adult, we should really learn things like how to pay bills, actively learn our time management, how to balance money as a whole, how to parent, etc. Because moment of realism here, you probably need to know how to pay bills and raise another human being a lot more than you do how to solve a calculus problem. You just use them a lot more once you're beyond school.

The only case you really do need that higher stuff is if it does in fact matter to your field. Like once again Gwazi said, 4 required years of English, 3 of Science, and 4 of Social Studies is just silly. It's one thing if someone doesn't know what they want, but by this time most everyone I know has some idea, and I think students need the option to be able to pursue what will actually help them later on rather than be trapped by only 2 free classes and then scramble to learn it all in the 4 years they're likely gonna be at college.

I even think more schools need to do more helping students find colleges. Again this is likely a privilege I have with my specific school, but we have almost a dozen GCs to help us out. I even meet with my own to discuss my summer plans in a matter of hours, and that's gonna involve discussing colleges and planning visits too. And while students can on their own find things, they may not always think of things without other people helping. I for example never would've looked at a school in Kansas, but for where I'm trying to get, it's actually a great fit!

And to make one comment regarding my initial post, I'd like to say also I live in an area of absolutely terrible schools, really. Even our private religious high schools have kids showing up drunk and high regularly, and the non religious schools have plenty of pregnant teen girls. I am aware these are some shit schools and it's somewhat unfair to go off those examples, but also understand I suggested online learning because it would've helped a lot of people I know.

My friend would've not been introduced to drugs, another friend of mine never would've thought she was pregnant. And you know what? They're experiencing all those horrible things, and honestly aren't learning very much that they'll benefit from. Yes, reform can fix that, but my personal feelings from those do play a very huge role in why I in some ways wish school wasn't even a thing. It's not because it's exactly hard, because learning to work is important, I just never have seen first hand the benefits you all tell me are there to have. I hope this sheds some light on what I'm saying.

 

[ElBell]

I also forgot but my phone won't edit T-T

If we were to include a Religions class, that could be a very risky move. I love the idea a lot, but at the same time I don't feel like it would work well at all. I myself did take one religious class at a local school here, and all I will say is that the teacher had an incredibly hard time keeping people from fighting with one another over what they believed.

I also feel like certain religions or lacks of religion wouldn't be properly represented. And while learning religions in a textbook method would be educational, there is no doubt you would get people of certain religions turning it into a religious text thumping session every chance they got, and I just worry it'd move away from education and more into a battle to see who can best convert and convince :/

 

[Melon]

Ok, I'm typing this on my phone, so if I make mistakes, I apologize.

This is how I see it. You want a decent job? Finish high school.

Sure there are "decent" jobs if you drop out, but you'd be very lucky if you actually got a decent pay.

If you want to be successful in life, you're gonna have to have education. As much as I hate going to school at times, I know that it is necessary for me to go if I want to get the job I desire.

 

[October Knight]

Kids need discipline and structure. Sitting inside on the internet all day promotes neck beardism. If we all sat inside all day the world wouldn't work. So yes, school, or something like it is needed.

 

[ElBell]

Education is so honestly over valued over experience in life but I know 95% of people could probably never let go of strict education to utilize the potential of on the job experience from when you find what you need to do.

 

[Kagayours]

Not being as controlling over the students there. The point of High School is to prepare people for the working world or for college/university. We aren't doing that by hounding them for the smallest of things such as getting up to use the washroom without asking. If we want to prepare the students to be adults, we need to treat them as adults, not children that need to have their hand held with everything and under constant surveillance.

Holy shit, this.

I had terrible 'senioritis' as a high school senior because I was just so fucking sick of being treated like a kid. @_@ I was super eager to get into college so I could finally have a bit of independence and not be treated like a ten-year-old, and, while I did love finally being treated like an adult, the autonomy is a bit much to adjust to, in some instances. As much as I loved being free of a ton of high school bullshit, a smoother transition would've been nice -- as well as maybe a bit less bullshit to begin with.

 

[Kagayours]

It's not because it's exactly hard, because learning to work is important, I just never have seen first hand the benefits you all tell me are there to have.

The fact that "learning work is important" is exactly why school is a thing. It tries to teach kids to learn to work, and, yes, it's true that not everyone will take that seriously and screw themselves over by just refusing to even try to get anything out of it. But, at least it's making an attempt, and giving people work to do and schedules to get it done in -- which is far more than just DIY learning on the internet will do. That doesn't teach people to do work -- that teaches people that they can do whatever they want with their day whether it's helpful to them or not. There is absolutely no structure, and no work that's mandatory. Hell even if people do take an interest in learning by themselves online, I think they'll just spend a lot more time watching SciShow and VSauce rather than writing essays.

Traditional schooling might not be perfect at teaching kids to learn to work and a lot of them don't get much out of it, but it certainly does a better job than free-form learning would do, which doesn't even attempt to teach discipline or work ethic.

Also, since you mentioned your schooling background, I should mention that not every traditional school is so terrible. In fact, the public school system I attended actually had many of the things that Gwazi talked about. For example, a mandatory "PIG" (Participation in Government) class that everyone has to take senior year, a mandatory health class with a pretty good sex-ed unit (which, yes, also comprehensively discussed birth control options), a mandatory "life skills" class in middle school, a pretty solid unit on evolution in middle school science, and after-school child care up until grade 6. Yes, there are still a lot of changes I'd recommend to my own school, but I'd say I was lucky enough to have gone to one of the better ones. It wouldn't be right to take good schools away from kids who have them.

 

[Gwazi Magnum]

I agree with most of what @Gen. Gwazi Magnum said, but I think the mental illness, sexuality awareness, and maybe even some anti-bullying things could all be an one to two year course of 'General Sensitivity'. Or of course, probably something better named because that's not so appealing xD

That would work as well.
I don't so much think that each of them needs to be there own class, especially since a High School class is at least twice as long as a college class in terms of overall hours:

The Math

High School Class: 74 Minutes, 5 Days a week, 18 weeks.
College Class: 180 Minutes, Once a week, 14 weeks.

74 * 5 * 18 = 6660 Minutes (111 Hours)
180 * 1 * 14 = 2520 Minutes (42 Hours)

but more so that these things do need to be adequately taught and covered in school.

I also hugely agree sex-ed needs to actually educate and not scare the want out of every person, lol. But then again I also think a longer chapter on it in Health class is enough if Health (which is very important in my mind) were to be a full year course.

Most likely.
My School ran over quite a bit because they were strapped for time.

Also this reminds me to add to the list:

• Get rid of that stupid "I pull my student from this unit" thing for Parents when it's Sex Ed. I'm sorry, but your lack of ability to teach your kids about this and make them comfortable about it is not a license to stop the school from doing so.

if school is preparing us for life as an adult, we should really learn things like how to pay bills, actively learn our time management, how to balance money as a whole, how to parent, etc. Because moment of realism here, you probably need to know how to pay bills and raise another human being a lot more than you do how to solve a calculus problem. You just use them a lot more once you're beyond school.

This as well. I'm honestly surprised I forgot about this one myself.
Probably because I still live at home, so taxes and bills aren't a current concern.

I even think more schools need to do more helping students find colleges. Again this is likely a privilege I have with my specific school, but we have almost a dozen GCs to help us out. I even meet with my own to discuss my summer plans in a matter of hours, and that's gonna involve discussing colleges and planning visits too. And while students can on their own find things, they may not always think of things without other people helping. I for example never would've looked at a school in Kansas, but for where I'm trying to get, it's actually a great fit!

Compared to my School that's a Privilege. Mine only had two GCs, and students were assigned to them alphabetically.
That and the only college aid we got as an optional seminar that was a one hour tutorial on using the "Access Colleges" website.

Though I should be fair here, having been doing a Co-Op at an Autism Therapy center around the end of High School (Where my Boss was my former therapist, and future summer job employer) I was more going to them for college advice than my school. So it is possible my High School did have something else offered that I wasn't aware of. But that does still at least indicate that the school at least needed to do better in making it known such aid/support programs existed.

Even our private religious high schools have kids showing up drunk and high regularly, and the non religious schools have plenty of pregnant teen girls.

This makes me have to ask, how big were the religious schools on Abstinence?
Because generally Religious schools having bigger sex, drug and drinking problems is to be expected, their students aren't taught actual information but rather sheltered and told "Be a good person".
Which has been proven over and over again to be ineffective.

My friend would've not been introduced to drugs, another friend of mine never would've thought she was pregnant. And you know what? They're experiencing all those horrible things, and honestly aren't learning very much that they'll benefit from. Yes, reform can fix that, but my personal feelings from those do play a very huge role in why I in some ways wish school wasn't even a thing. It's not because it's exactly hard, because learning to work is important, I just never have seen first hand the benefits you all tell me are there to have. I hope this sheds some light on what I'm saying.

Some schools are definitely worse off than others.
And the culture & poverty level of people around the school is also a giant Influence.
Basically, as much tweaking of the school curriculum we do, it will only do so much. There's also other factors at play.

If we were to include a Religions class, that could be a very risky move. I love the idea a lot, but at the same time I don't feel like it would work well at all. I myself did take one religious class at a local school here, and all I will say is that the teacher had an incredibly hard time keeping people from fighting with one another over what they believed.

I also feel like certain religions or lacks of religion wouldn't be properly represented. And while learning religions in a textbook method would be educational, there is no doubt you would get people of certain religions turning it into a religious text thumping session every chance they got, and I just worry it'd move away from education and more into a battle to see who can best convert and convince :/

Being honest what gave me the idea was England.

Back when I was younger I was friends with a number of people from England (one of which was my partner at the time), and through which I heard a decent amount about the fact they had a Religion class, how they handled it, how it worked out etc. And they all basically said the same thing, that people were surprisingly mature and unbiased about it. They really did know how to keep it as an Academic study rather than be a religious war.

Now granted, the last time I talked with anyone from England about this was several years ago and also granted that England's culture and outlook on Religion probably has it better equipped for such a thing than Canada or USA would be. So I'm not expecting such a program to be as successful here as it is over there for quite some time, but it's a start to get people more aware of different things out there. Plus if the religious thumping is more among students than the teacher I don't even see the issue, you get to have class debates out of that. I've been in a Philosophy class before that flourished from such things.

Hell even if people do take an interest in learning by themselves online, I think they'll just spend a lot more time watching SciShow and VSauce rather than writing essays.

*Raises Hand shamefully*

I'm guilty of this myself. :P
Though give me another Cosmos show and I'll watch the hell out of it.

 

[Gwazi Magnum]

Also, I probably should have posted these sooner.

 

[unanun]

You can't teach children sensibility, responsibility, or empathy. In nearly all cases you learn by making the mistake or experiencing it firsthand. That's one of the most essential, unspoken, hidden-but-obvious lessons you learn in adulthood.

 

[ElBell]

@Gen. Gwazi Magnum The religious schools here are HUGE on abstinence, above anything else. It's their strictest policy, and they actually won't accept students with children, students who are known to be non-virgins, and they expel you for any sexual actions while you're enrolled, be it on or off campus. I actually once had a friend get yelled at because she kissed her older brother when he dropped her off and they thought he was her boyfriend >_>" So yes, to answer your question they are very harsh on rule of abstinence at all times.

@unanun You're right, you cannot teach those things, but what if a responsible kid doesn't understand finances, or how to pay bills and taxes, or how to write a proper letter? At least if there is a general life skills class as an option, they have the tools they need to function as an adult, and can ignore them if they choose to be lazy or don't want to use it. If school is about setting up for adult life, then that absolutely must be incorporated in some way.