Is School Even Needed?

[ElBell]

This debate is done for me. I don't think anyone is taking things how I am trying to present it, and to be frank I'm getting insulted a lot when it isn't needed, but that's perfectly fine. Have a nice day.

 

[Brovo]

My point is, we don't all need so much crazy advance stuff. It's not generally practical to know so much math, or to know all about the wars over history in incredible detail like we're expected to.

"Progress, far from consisting in change, depends on retentiveness. When change is absolute there remains no being to improve and no direction is set for possible improvement: and when experience is not retained, as among savages, infancy is perpetual. Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." - George Santayana

History is hammered into your skull over and over so that you'll remember the mistakes of the past. You're taught mathematics so you can perform at the level necessary to achieve work competency. You're taught how to read and write because, unsurprisingly, not every parent in the world gives a shit to teach such skill sets to their youth. It introduces the concept of social skills and puts you in an environment with peers within your age bracket, and surrounds you with adults trained to feed you the information necessary to perform mundane tasks.

Is it a perfect system? No. I could go on for ages about the flaws. Is it a necessary system? Considering we pretty much completely eliminated illiteracy doing so, I'd say that yes. Yes it is. Because you can't use a computer properly if you can't read in the first place. As for math you learn in high school that you don't necessarily need in day to day life? Depends. I use trigonometry to figure out where the centre of mass is on objects so I can stack them efficiently. I'm a warehouse worker.

Don't judge a book by its cover until you can learn how to read it.

Not to mention, families who live in destitute poverty will have ill access to the fables of the Internet, inherently putting them at a disadvantage in achieving the educational materials which other students acquire. Not to mention, it is (supposed to) set you up for post-secondary, so you have the basic set of skills necessary to enter into several hundred different potential fields. Considering how obscenely expensive post-secondary is, I'd rather not tack an extra year onto the front of every field specifically to teach the basics that high school failed at.

So, no. We can't replace facilities filled with trained staff and hundreds of students surrounded by their peers with the Internet and hope to achieve anything less than further social stratification, perhaps to the level of making it outright perpetual.

 

[Hana]

This debate is done for me. I don't think anyone is taking things how I am trying to present it, and to be frank I'm getting insulted a lot when it isn't needed, but that's perfectly fine. Have a nice day.

When you get a topic as sensitive as education and throw it into a debate, there's bound to be really spirited defending on either side. I don't think @Cowboy was necessarily insulting you, nor do I think the others are. Dervish, Jorick and Cowboy all have made viable points, and you also have yours. While I agree that they could have addressed you a bit more politely, there's no need to go on the defensive so soon. Listen to the others opinions, and offer yours politely. When they see you're able to debate without getting too worked up, and you're polite to them, they may get the hint and tone down their words.

As for my own bit, eh... My Asian parents and my general Asian-ness is making me inwardly scream at the thought school isn't needed. xD Much like Razilin, I was one of those high achieving students, consistently getting an A with only a couple of hours of study a night. College is a different experience for me, though, and I wish I could have taken school much more seriously. Seriously, I wish I went an extra mile in my studies back then.

One thing about school that didn't really work so well for me was the social aspect, I guess? I was really introverted and rather dependent on a small group of close friends. When I got to college it was so hard to be on my own since I was so used to having someone by me.

 

[ElBell]

I get your point and I agree, but I don't take lightly to being told to run away, or being called a fool for having a thought. That's not debating at all, and a strong opinion isn't an excuse to behave that way to anyone.

 

[Dervish]

This debate is done for me. I don't think anyone is taking things how I am trying to present it, and to be frank I'm getting insulted a lot when it isn't needed, but that's perfectly fine. Have a nice day.

I don't have time time to read and reply to you all right now as much as I want, but you're missing some of my points or not quite taking them as I intended them.


I also find it fascinating you all assumed online courses, as organized classes. I am talking about 100% free learning after incredibly basic things. No classes whatsoever. More conditioning from the system I would guess... But my point is that then it comes down much more to a motivation level, and yes, we still would get doctors and lawyers from that. But only ones who actually gave a damn to get there.

I don't know how else we're supposed to interpret this, and I don't know exactly how anybody's missing what you're trying to say. If that's the case, then it's on you to clarify what you mean because we only have what you've been writing to work with. If everybody's interpreting what you're saying one way but you are trying to say another, doesn't that suggest you might need to elaborate or actually address the points being brought up?

The only one I've seen being outright offensive was Cowboy (I agree with his points, but yeah, he was needlessly crass and rude), but surely you had to realize you'd have some strong vocal opinions and arguments against your point when you put up a debate tag.

 

[ElBell]

Of course I am aware of that, but it's one thing to debate and another to go overboard and insult another person. And it's just an issue for me since I really don't know how else to say what I am trying to say. I don't know what other words I could possibly use, so that's why I personally think it's just best I walk away from this before I make things worse through other failed attempts to express myself.

 

[Tanner8580]

Ok. Seeing as this has become an issue I would like to remind everyone that you all have an opinion and you are entitled to it. This does not give you the right to insult someone based on their opinion. If you disagree with an opinion you can disagree civilly. You do not insult anyone as it is clearly uncalled for. Have done respect for each other.

 

[Razilin]

i liked school

lots of friends

classes were usually easy -- except calculus. i actually had to sit down and study that.

shop/engineering class was fun as hell -- get to build things, make mini-bridges, built circuits. surprisingly practical stuff, if you eventually figure out how to EXPAND on the concept. let's just say my saturdays generally became "mad scientist weekends" on occasion after picking up some practical tips on circuits.

chemistry, oh god chemistry. stoichiometry is kinda dumb unless you're doing abstract stuff. for me, chemistry and physics were the bomb because once you UNDERSTOOD it, you can make all sorts of fun things...make your pasta cook faster, make your own rockets, make your own TV projectors out of cardboard boxes, a magnifying sheet, and your ipad in the inverted position....

i needed someone to show me the basics, so i could figure out the rest.

btw, everyone should keep their physics and chemistry books.

so many fun saturdays to be had! Menards or Home Depot + chemistry book + physics book + microwave oven. Just saying.

 

[Brovo]

Of course I am aware of that, but it's one thing to debate and another to go overboard and insult another person. And it's just an issue for me since I really don't know how else to say what I am trying to say. I don't know what other words I could possibly use, so that's why I personally think it's just best I walk away from this before I make things worse through other failed attempts to express myself.

I'm not going to shout at you, but I'm going to pretty much tell you why your argument is flawed from the perspective of someone who has been through grade school.

He prefaced with this. He wasn't intending to offend you so much as he was simply passionate about the subject. He was using an aggressive form of argumentation, but wasn't particularly insulting you so much as he was asking you to back up your claims: If school is unnecessary, drop out of school.

Keep in mind that's my interpretation, obviously. Maybe he was trying to be a dick, does that discount his points at all? Does that discount the civil conversation everyone else was attempting to achieve?

Ok. Seeing as this has become an issue I would like to remind everyone that you all have an opinion and you are entitled to it. This does not give you the right to insult someone based on their opinion. If you disagree with an opinion you can disagree civilly. You do not insult anyone as it is clearly uncalled for. Have done respect for each other.

Relax caballero, nobody's trying to bash people here. Just passionate arguments.

 

[Darog]

Of course I am aware of that, but it's one thing to debate and another to go overboard and insult another person. And it's just an issue for me since I really don't know how else to say what I am trying to say. I don't know what other words I could possibly use, so that's why I personally think it's just best I walk away from this before I make things worse through other failed attempts to express myself.

A thesaurus usually helps in that regard.

Anyway, My opinion on this topic has already been said by others really. On a personal level though? It was probably some of the best times of my childhood, especially just hanging out with my friends and getting excited for Music class. it's a "Necessary Evil" if you truly think School is the worst part of your life. There's also College and University in which you meet people who are on the same page as yourself in that "I'm here to learn and not fuck around" sure, Students are asshats first and second year (kinda given really), so you rarely come across the dumb shit who does not give a shit.

TLDR: It's not that bad, k? k.

 

[Dervish]

Of course I am aware of that, but it's one thing to debate and another to go overboard and insult another person. And it's just an issue for me since I really don't know how else to say what I am trying to say. I don't know what other words I could possibly use, so that's why I personally think it's just best I walk away from this before I make things worse through other failed attempts to express myself.

I can't speak for others, although I suspect most would agree, but I for one didn't intend to come across as condescending or rude. If it was perceived that way, it wasn't my intention. Nuisance is lost over text alone, and I'm simply relating my experiences and opinions. I read over my post, the only thing that I think could be taken as remotely insulting is the word 'silly', but I would hope that we're not at a stage where that is actually taken as an insult. Other than that, level and fair language.

I know it can be overwhelming when you're on the side of an unpopular opinion (trust me, I've been there; back in grade 12, I was the only person on the side of a classroom debate advocating for why it was better to use nuclear weapons on Japan than to go after the alternatives), but you have a fair and even podium and you can chose to ignore anyone you find being rude or offensive and address the people you think are being respectful. You aren't pressured to reply right away, so you can take the time to find your words. It's a good exercise, and heck, even something like this could be used in favour for or against your argument, since this is a topic that requires some thought and serious discussion about the merits for against against organized education.

You aren't making things bad for yourself or digging yourself in a hole, far from it. Take some time and come back to it, maybe you'll feel better about replying then. I know you well enough to know that you can be very articulate and you've earned a fair deal of respect from me in the past for posts you've made and positions you've argued for. You certainly have it in you to open people's minds. Sometimes, you just have to look at it from a fresh perspective or even take a point by point response to focus your thoughts.

Either way, I certainly still respect you and like you, so please don't think that having conflicting opinions on something like this is going to harm your relationships with members of the forum.

 

[Temet Nosce]

Alright, I see that some emotions are running high, and I acknowledge the fact I went overboard.

Does that mean that I'm disowning my previous opinion? No. I just think that I should have said it in a more polite way. But, all in all, I'm a cowboy. Everyone saying that I'm crude, crass, brash, rude, etc. is absolutely correct. Am I necessarily proud of it? No, but that is the way I am, and I freely admit to my faults when I do something wrong.

Was I trying to be rude in my original post? No.
Did I end up acting rudely towards ElBell? Yes.

I've already apologized over private message and we're seeing eye to eye now.

To get back to the thread's topic, I agree that high school is a pretty great time of your life if you do it right. I worked my butt off, but that doesn't mean that I didn't have fun. Shoot, if I listed half the dumb things I've done I'd need a pretty big shovel to dig me out of the pile of shit I'd be in.

So yeah, school isn't only essential, but it can also be fun if you take the right attitude towards it. Did I enjoy every class? No, I hated my science classes to be honest. But school can be fun.

Also, when I originally responded to this thread, I didn't read the beginning post as well as I should have. I was typing unaware that you were taking courses online. While I think that public school teaches valuable social skills you won't learn otherwise, formal education is better than no education no matter what the form.

The main point I was trying to make is that it's really important you do your best to get educated in some way, shape, or form. And grade school is the best way to do that since a lot of parents, especially ones I grew up with, would not be able to afford the financial costs of online school.

 

[GhostJoker]

*Ignores all other posts*

We spend our lives doing a bunch of crap we don't like. School being one of them. In general, school is fun. You make friends, you hang out with friends and you become apart of school sports/activities. Classes is when things go south. Majority of students hate studying and don't want to take tests or do homework.

However, as much as it's disliked, it's what helps us the most. Studying helps us retain information about that certain subject while the teachers show us how to apply it. That's what school is. School is definatly needed for those wanting to learn about a specific field. The internet contains load of information, but it won't be the same and you won't even know half of whatever it is you want to learn about.

School is there to make sure that you know everything that's needed to be known. It's there to teach you how to do it. If school wasn't around, we'd be fucked. People can dislike school as much as they want, but in the long run, it'll be what secures our future and allow us to pass knowledge to our children.

So, yes. School is needed.

 

[unanun]

I think, on average, school is what's needed for people. It provides a structured place to socialize and for children to learn essentials. You may argue on the curriculum, but the concept of schooling is probably merited. The important point is that overall, school is much better compared to the alternative of having children be homeschooled, for at least it provides children with breadth and choice that all our ancestors have laboured for.

 

[ElBell]

I think, on average, school is what's needed for people. It provides a structured place to socialize and for children to learn essentials. You may argue on the curriculum, but the concept of schooling is probably merited. The important point is that overall, school is much better compared to the alternative of having children be homeschooled, for at least it provides children with breadth and choice that all our ancestors have laboured for.

I just have to ask, are you suggesting that people not homeschool? Or are you just saying the choice to do either is important?

 

[unanun]

Unless you really know what you're doing, it's better to stick the kid in the educational system and guide them through it.

 

[ElBell]

Unless you really know what you're doing, it's better to stick the kid in the educational system and guide them through it.

As a homeschool student, I can honestly say the idea that it's so hard is very wrong. It's not nearly so bad, and honestly homeschoolers generally are very successful even under somewhat doubtful or uncertain parents. But I wonder, what does 'know what you're doing' entail? Teaching degrees? High education? Confidence?

 

[Brovo]

But I wonder, what does 'know what you're doing' entail? Teaching degrees? High education? Confidence?

Not thinking that learning about wars in history is pointless.

 

[Darog]

Not thinking that learning about wars in history is pointless.

 

[unanun]

As a homeschool student, I can honestly say the idea that it's so hard is very wrong. It's not nearly so bad, and honestly homeschoolers generally are very successful even under somewhat doubtful or uncertain parents. But I wonder, what does 'know what you're doing' entail? Teaching degrees? High education? Confidence?

I think it's the fortitude to teach kids a wide array of material, because they don't know what they want yet.