Gun Control- Yes, No, Maybe so?

More Gun Control?


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The prison issue is, as John Oliver pointed out in one of his episodes, that your country has private run prisons. Its a business, not a correctional facility. They see prisoners as a bank see a returning customer. They have no intention of making the world a better place, they only care about profit. so why rehabilite someone when you make money of their inevitable return.
 
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The prison issue is, as John Oliver pointed out in one of his episodes, that your country has private run prisons. Its a business, not a correctional facility. They see prisoners as a bank see a returning customer. They have no intention of making the world a better place, they only care about profit. so why rehabilite someone when you make money of their inevitable return.
Somehow it almost seems comparable to cemeteries and coffin-makers going on a murderer spree to drum up sales. Not only is it unethical, but in the end it will just create a mess of trouble for everyone. The problem is not they are private, but that they are unethical idiots who can't look past the short term consequences of their choices.
 
The problem IS that they are private. Prisons should be state run. The judical system is a State/Federal institution. Prisons are not supposed to be a profit buisness. If you make it a private buisness, funding and profit will always be the main thing. This is the nature of a so fundamentally capitalistic country as the US. Companies has no buisness owning and and exploiting people wholesale.
 
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The problem IS that they are private. Prisons should be state run. The judical system is a State/Federal institution. Prisons are not supposed to be a profit buisness. If you make it a private buisness, funding and profit will always be the main thing. This is the nature of a so fundamentally capitalistic country as the US. Companies has no buisness owning and and exploiting people wholesale.
Churches are privately run, so are many nonprofits. I'm also planning to form a business. I take it personally offensive that you believe something run by the government is less exploitative than a business I might run. Clearly your foot is in your mouth. The problem isn't something fundamental to private businesses, but instead the people running them.

Businesses are kept in check by the people who pay them being informed and caring about the quality of the service. The issue isn't that they are private, but because nobody gives a damn when prisoners are exploited. The government is the ones paying them... They should man up and demand they stop screwing over prisoners, but nobody cares enough for that to happen. How can you blame businesses for screwing people over, when the government and general public seems to give them the all clear?
 
How can you blame businesses for screwing people over, when the government and general public seems to give them the all clear?
Becosue they are the one actively screwing people over? Isn't that obvious? Yes there is a fundamental problem within your government if they allow themselves to outsource prisons to private businesses in the first case. The same way its fucking insane that you have hospitals running on profit, where doctors will look towards profit rather then helping people. These are institutions meant to help people, not turn profit. In the case of prisons, they are meant to be keeping people from harming others until they rehabilitated, or in the case of those that likely never can be rehabilitated, keep the world safe from them indefinitely.

A church is not intimately linked to the judical system, and neither should a business venture be. You shouldn't be allowed to make profit from human suffering. You shouldn't leave it at the hands of investors what happens to hundreds of thusands of peoples life. People, who I might add, are entirely dependent on the system from the moment they step in. It is in a Goverments best interests to rehabilitate and make sure it's citizens abide the law, that is not the bottomline for a buisness. A buisness in it's very nature, is to make money. This is the issue here.

SO foot in my mouth? No need to be rude. I am merely pointing out the fundemental flaw in letting a BUISNESS, that is all about PROFIT, have the full and utter control over peoples life.
 
The prison issue is, as John Oliver pointed out in one of his episodes, that your country has private run prisons. Its a business, not a correctional facility. They see prisoners as a bank see a returning customer. They have no intention of making the world a better place, they only care about profit. so why rehabilite someone when you make money of their inevitable return.
Eh, no, privately owned prisons aren't nearly as large a thing as you seem to think. From the numbers I can find, private prisons only account for 6% of incarcerated people at state level, and 16% at the federal level, plus a few states (Texas and Lousiana especially) have their local jails also privately owned. This number has been growing steadily for a long time now, but it's not even close to accounting for a majority of prisoners at this point.

The lack of rehabilitation has been a problem in the US justice system since loooooooong before private prisons started popping up. We've got a history of our justice system practicing retribution, punishment, and deterrence far more than rehabilitation. The reason why we have such a stupidly high prison population is because our justice system's foolish focus on punishment, especially for non-violent crimes, means that sentences for those found guilty tends far more heavily to jail time than to rehabilitative programs. Drug addicts are chucked into jail rather than rehab, for example.

The for-profit prison industry is as much a symptom of the underlying problems in the justice system as it is a problem in and of itself.
 
Fair enough. I concede on that regard. That said, private owned prisons is not gonna help anything.
 
Fair enough. I concede on that regard. That said, private owned prisons is not gonna help anything.
Are you suggesting they be government run? Thus far it seems so, but I don't wanna put out my argument if I misread something
 
While this is venturing into off topic territory, I'm pretty sure a big reason private prisons are a thing is because the federal and states governments couldn't afford to adequately run the facilities. Privately owned ones take the burden off the system, and ideally, can provide better facilities and staff than the government ones.

Of course, reality doesn't always meet expectations, and just as I'm sure there's some excellent private prisons, there's probably some really unethical shitholes out there.
 
Becosue they are the one actively screwing people over? Isn't that obvious? Yes there is a fundamental problem within your government if they allow themselves to outsource prisons to private businesses in the first case. The same way its fucking insane that you have hospitals running on profit, where doctors will look towards profit rather then helping people. These are institutions meant to help people, not turn profit. In the case of prisons, they are meant to be keeping people from harming others until they rehabilitated, or in the case of those that likely never can be rehabilitated, keep the world safe from them indefinitely.

A church is not intimately linked to the judical system, and neither should a business venture be. You shouldn't be allowed to make profit from human suffering. You shouldn't leave it at the hands of investors what happens to hundreds of thusands of peoples life. People, who I might add, are entirely dependent on the system from the moment they step in. It is in a Goverments best interests to rehabilitate and make sure it's citizens abide the law, that is not the bottomline for a buisness. A buisness in it's very nature, is to make money. This is the issue here.

SO foot in my mouth? No need to be rude. I am merely pointing out the fundemental flaw in letting a BUISNESS, that is all about PROFIT, have the full and utter control over peoples life.
If you truly think that government is interested in rehabilitation, then why are they letting this happen? If private businesses truly cannot answer the need for people to rehabilitate people, the government knows this, and still allows it to happen; then that means you must be wrong about the interests of government.

Also, I think you are wrong about what private individuals can do with a business. You are right in saying that people shouldn't profit on suffering. Nobody has to suffer. This is true of both government run and privately run structures. Both kinds can equally fuck it up, especially if they have no concern for the people they are serving. People whose business causes people to suffer should be shut down, regardless of who runs it.

The entire reason why private prisons are so useful is because they are incentivized to operate efficently. The state uses them because state prisons are swamped, and there aren't resources to deal with the mess that our Justice system is creating. I'm not saying that there aren't private prisons that exploit people. I'm just saying that if these private prisons were actually held accountable to a standard of care, they would work more efficiently than their government counterparts.

And yes, your foot is in your mouth, because you don't seem at all sorry that you insinuated that anyone who owns a private business exploits people for profit.
 
And yes, your foot is in your mouth, because you don't seem at all sorry that you insinuated that anyone who owns a private business exploits people for profit.
At what point did I make this insinuation. I pointed out that buisness is about money, and this becomes a problem when you are dealing with people who basically have all their rights revoked and who are left in said business care. It becomes a conflict in interest when something that is driven by monetary gain is given the reigns over people who have no say but to follow with their directions. These are not employees who can quit or form a union. These are not indiviuals who can easily go to the media. These are people who are entirely dependant on what the system gives them. They might have put themselves there for whatever reason, but the second they are there they are the mercy of others in its entirety.
 
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I suppose everyone had to stop being understanding in a Debate thread at some point.

Luna, that's not what Hellis was saying at all. Seriously dunno where you got that from. He was making a point about the dangers of privately owned and operated prisons in the USA, not private businesses. Since, y'know, pretty much all business are private.

Seriously, relax.
 
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While this is venturing into off topic territory, I'm pretty sure a big reason private prisons are a thing is because the federal and states governments couldn't afford to adequately run the facilities. Privately owned ones take the burden off the system, and ideally, can provide better facilities and staff than the government ones.

Of course, reality doesn't always meet expectations, and just as I'm sure there's some excellent private prisons, there's probably some really unethical shitholes out there.
According to the wiki article I browsed to read up on privately owned prisons: private prisons are known to have notoriously under trained staff members. Letting riots simply fizzle out on their own because the ratio is 1 staff to 20-60 prisoners. One link even had one prison system paying off judges to send them teenagers so they could get more funding. Two thousand kids were sent there before it was found out.

Also siding with @Hellis on the private business idea. Yes, some people aren't in it for the money. But there are likely many more that want to make an easy dollar. That's capitalism for you. Or the American Dream if you believe in that religion.
 
I suppose everyone had to stop being understanding in a Debate thread at some point.

Luna, that's not what Hellis was saying at all. Seriously dunno where you got that from. He was making a point about the dangers of privately owned and operated prisons in the USA, not private businesses. Since, y'know, pretty much all business are private.

Seriously, relax.
I'm glad that isn't what he meant, but this is where I got it from.
The problem IS that they are private. Prisons should be state run. The judical system is a State/Federal institution. Prisons are not supposed to be a profit buisness. If you make it a private buisness, funding and profit will always be the main thing. This is the nature of a so fundamentally capitalistic country as the US. Companies has no buisness owning and and exploiting people wholesale.

Becosue they are the one actively screwing people over? Isn't that obvious? Yes there is a fundamental problem within your government if they allow themselves to outsource prisons to private businesses in the first case. The same way its fucking insane that you have hospitals running on profit, where doctors will look towards profit rather then helping people. These are institutions meant to help people, not turn profit. In the case of prisons, they are meant to be keeping people from harming others until they rehabilitated, or in the case of those that likely never can be rehabilitated, keep the world safe from them indefinitely.
Hellis keeps presenting this dichotomy that businesses(not just prisons) are constantly choosing between profit and helping people, and that this is universally true of all businesses. I'm saying that this is dichotomy is false, and that the problem is a lack of accountability for businesses, and a lack of care for the target audience. I don't like the idea of people thinking that business is about choosing money over helping people because that becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy should someone going into business believe it.

If I read this wrong, then I clearly don't understand the scope of this argument.
 
According to the wiki article I browsed to read up on privately owned prisons: private prisons are known to have notoriously under trained staff members. Letting riots simply fizzle out on their own because the ratio is 1 staff to 20-60 prisoners. One link even had one prison system paying off judges to send them teenagers so they could get more funding. Two thousand kids were sent there before it was found out.

Also siding with @Hellis on the private business idea. Yes, some people aren't in it for the money. But there are likely many more that want to make an easy dollar. That's capitalism for you. Or the American Dream if you believe in that religion.
They are paid and authorized by the government. Despite their behavior, the government still continues to pay and authorize this. I can't see how the lack of government action is not the problem here.
 
They are paid and authorized by the government. Despite their behavior, the government still continues to pay and authorize this. I can't see how the lack of government action is not the problem here.
So wait.. We shouldn't blame the people doing the crime but instead should be blaming the ones who are supposed to be watching them?

The problem is the government won't handle it because it could cost them even more by taking them back over. That seems a logical reason why they continue to ignore the glaring problems in that sector.
 
So wait.. We shouldn't blame the people doing the crime but instead should be blaming the ones who are supposed to be watching them?

The problem is the government won't handle it because it could cost them even more by taking them back over. That seems a logical reason why they continue to ignore the glaring problems in that sector.
I'm not sure what you mean by that first part.

I'm just saying that the government is willing to pay for private prisons, but takes no responsibility or care for those prisons operating ethically. The government doesn't need to take the function back, they'd just need to pass regulations such as a staff to prisoner ratio, and anything else we agree is important to a prison. When these private prisons misbehave, the government should have the power to punish the people running it by forcing a change of management, or fining them enough to make it hurt. Instead they are doing nothing, and letting private prisons look like evil entities in need of government control.
 
Wait....


....people disagree about this?
 
Okay. I don't have time to read through everybody else's opinions ATM. So please don't mind me if I'm repeating what's being said above me.

Gun control, yay or nay... I voted yes but I really think it depends. I don't like how Obama restricts the use of semi-automatic weapons, because criminals and gang members (Especially cartels) like to carry around big, fully-automatic weapons. If you don't have the ability to protect yourself, especially when it's life or death, no time to dial 9-1-1. Also, cops have been shooting innocent people (and dogs) recently in a lot of places in the U.S. It's getting ridiculous, we can't even trust the police to keep us safe any more. I've watched a video about police gun safety, and that's what makes me the angriest. Cops in Florida blame a shooting of an apprehended man on the premise that he reached for his gun. If you know anything about police guns, especially in big cities where crime rates are high and police departments are well funded, than you'll know that this is BS. The holster for police guns, including Florida, have mechanisms that make it so you cannot remove the gun unless you were trained to do so. Also, the gun wouldn't fire inside the holster, due to a special lock inside of it. I've honestly lost my faith in police officials lately.

Back to gun safety laws. All they do is make it so the people who actually get their guns the legal way have a harder time protecting themselves against those who go the sour road and steal, build, or buy their guns on the black market. Criminals can find any way to get guns. And there's even a course you have to take to be able to use each kind of firearm, so that should technically be enough gun safety for the whole lot. And gun safety laws wouldn't stop school shootings. Most of the time, shootings are caused by depression and anger issues between students or teachers. Students most likely would get their gun from their parents, who should do a better job locking their firearms away. And teachers can just get a gun as long as they go through the proper training and wait period.

Some schools even allow teachers to keep guns and knives in their desks, so that's not particularly safe either.

That's all I have to say on the matter.
 
Perhaps I should have reworded what I said previously to be more concise.

We (being that of the United States of America) live on a massive piece of land, with two large coasts, and two adjacent countries that have massive borders that are downright nigh-impossible to police 24/7. A Gun Ban would solve nothing for the mere fact that smuggling them would be stupid easy. It would be as easy as it's being done now. Other countries, like the UK and Australia, have nothing but coasts to worry about. They also have a population that was willing to let the police go door to door and just toss their homes for guns (Australia). With zero recompense, I might add.

With that in mind, Gun Crime would continue in spite of furthering Gun Laws. Except now, only criminals and police would be armed. And considering the stats that have been posted by others: I don't know about you, but I'd rather have some form of protection in my home and not rely 100% on police. Anecdotally, Detroit residents have to wait up to 30 minutes for a police response. Police and congressmen have been quoted as saying, "You only need the police to protect you."

Some people unfortunately live in places where they wish in one hand and shit in the other when someone kicks their door in and they're forced to call 911.
 
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