Gender Selection in preferences

[Diana]

No one has ever died from the following:

Not being able to tell what someone's gender is.

Asking someone a question about their gender.

Getting someone's gender wrong and having to be corrected.

Having to correct someone about their own gender.


There are good reasons to have the field, and there are also good reasons to NOT have. Both are equally valid and neither actually matter in the long run. It is a five second different between checking a profile or asking a question. Convenience is the only thing that could be an issue. Everyone is going to be too busy roleplaying and having fun for that five seconds to hurt.


I must also say: If your social anxiety is SO BAD that you can't handle a simple human question, that is something YOU need to work on. Being forced to now ask people to know the answer is GOOD for you; whether you have to be the one to ask, or the one to answer. I am telling you this as a fellow person with severe social anxiety who just yesterday had a near panic attack because I was forced to talk to a stranger on the phone. @___@ For about ten minutes I thought I was going to die, but I HAD to do it.

Yes, it's awkward and it's hard, but life doesn't accomidate our social anxiety. D: We have to learn to manage it, and the best way to do that is by trying to do the things we're anxious about. Communities like Iwaku can create a safe space up to a point, after that it's all on you to handle yourself.

I actually think it's kind of awesome that this has sparked a discussion on gender identity and now people are thinking and talking about it. 8D Imagine all the great conversations peeps are gonna have with their rp partners now as they get to know each other better.

...And ya'll over thinking the ice cream thing. XD It's like art critics trying to analyze a painted red circle with some kind of deeper symbolism. It's a circle! It's literally just a circle! D:

 

[Hecatoncheires]

I really need to finish that "A Thing Gets Changed On Iwaku" bingo.

Cos this shit is ticking all the boxes, seriously.

 

[Ananfal]

No one has ever died from the following:

Not being able to tell what someone's gender is.

Asking someone a question about their gender.

Getting someone's gender wrong and having to be corrected.

Having to correct someone about their own gender.

Um, this is only true (to my knowledge) online.... In person, serious injury and even death can be a very real concern for people who are trans and NB. There have been many people who have been killed for daring to tell people their preferred gender or pronouns. That's the very reason why this good-will gesture is very important from the staff to show people who are afraid in their real life about such things, to be able to relax online in a community that they know supports and accepts them.

Yes, it's awkward and it's hard, but life doesn't accomidate our social anxiety. D: We have to learn to manage it, and the best way to do that is by trying to do the things we're anxious about. Communities like Iwaku can create a safe space up to a point, after that it's all on you to handle yourself.

I... agree with this up to a certain point. It's true that issues like severe social anxiety are problems that need to be dealt with, but keep in mind that there has to be some place that they can relax and not be forced into the same situations that they are in real life. Everyone needs a place to relax and not be stressed, and it would be wrong of us to force some people into unhappy situations in an attempt to make some other people happy and safe.

 

[Diana]

Um, this is only true (to my knowledge) online.... In person, serious injury and even death can be a very real concern for people who are trans and NB. There have been many people who have been killed for daring to tell people their preferred gender or pronouns. That's the very reason why this good-will gesture is very important from the staff to show people who are afraid in their real life about such things, to be able to relax online in a community that they know supports and accepts them.

I... agree with this up to a certain point. It's true that issues like severe social anxiety are problems that need to be dealt with, but keep in mind that there has to be some place that they can relax and not be forced into the same situations that they are in real life. Everyone needs a place to relax and not be stressed, and it would be wrong of us to force some people into unhappy situations in an attempt to make some other people happy and safe.

Context is really important, though! They are not going to face violence HERE on this site because of gender. Iwaku has always been a big friendly rainbow for lbgt issues, at one point the majority of the staff were in the lbgt spectrum. Not having the gender fields will not put people in danger. It's a convenience, but it's not a necessity.

You also have to consider that it can only do so much in making this a safe space for people. Admins sometimes have to make decisions about the -weirdest- stuff that seems superfluous or redundant. Theyhave to consider a lot of factors that most people don't think about. In this case, when the topic of the gender field came up and they were discussing it, the admins decided that it was more important to protect user's privacy about gender to prevent unwanted solicitation from sexual predators over giving everyone a variety of easy-pick gender options. Especially since people can still write their gender preferences on their profile if they really want to. Iwaku NEVER has issues with peeps abusing our lbgt crowd, but it DOES have frequent issues deterring sex predators.

 

[Ananfal]

In this case, when the topic of the gender field came up and they were discussing it, the admins decided that it was more important to protect user's privacy about gender to prevent unwanted solicitation from sexual predators over giving everyone a variety of easy-pick gender options. Especially since people can still write their gender preferences on their profile if they really want to. Iwaku NEVER has issues with peeps abusing our lbgt crowd, but it DOES have frequent issues deterring sex predators.

You're right, I suppose. Can't really come up with a counter argument right now lol. I just want things to work out for everyone.

 

[Elle Joyner]

I guess where I'm confused is... if we can write female/male in our info spot if we prefer to... Why couldn't a person who identifies differently just have done the same? Wouldn't that, effectively, be a write-in response to a question they could then either choose not to mark... or mark as 'person' ? The whole aspect of changing it to 'ice cream', while I know it was only done in fun and was meant to be sort of a silly placeholder for the spot, does still seem like it'll be confusing to people - new or otherwise. As does the idea that we now have no way to tell what preference ANYONE has for their pronouns.

I don't really necessarily care either way - I've said my peace(scoop?) and it doesn't matter to me if it stays or changes back or is altered in some other fashion, but I can SEE why people aren't happy with it... It just feels a little dismissive now in the opposite direction, for those folks who WANT their gender to be known for whatever reason? And I know... you can't make everyone happy - but I'm not sure many people, apart from perhaps wanting MORE options, were genuinely UNHAPPY with how it was before, I think is the point some folks are trying to make?

I dunno... I'm just annoyed now cause I want ice cream >_<

 

[Diana]

I just want things to work out for everyone.

It's literally impossible. There's too many people to please. ;__; Lord knows, they try though. O_O I woke up to 300+ messages of them arguing what the best option would be. At lot of the comments you guys are making here now are things they went over too. At the very least, people should take pride in the fact their admins actually spend that much time seriously considering people's suggestions and what will be good for the site. They make me so proud and warm and fuzzy. T__T


EXCEPT THE ICE CREAM. NO ONE KNEW THE ICE CREAM WOULD BE A CONSPIRACY!

 

[Elle Joyner]

EXCEPT THE ICE CREAM. NO ONE KNEW THE ICE CREAM WOULD BE A CONSPIRACY

Ice cream is always a conspiracy...

 

[Kagayours]

Ice cream is always a conspiracy...

Ice cream ghosts are an even greater conspiracy.

 

[RAIN.cloud]

I'm really not into this ice cream thing.
I mean if the point is to not have someone feel forced to identify as male, female, or person, than why choose ice cream?
it's the same pressure of choosing but with flavors (that don't full encompass all ice creams)
i know this probably sounds stupid
ice cream and gender aren't the same
but the idea of being forced to choose is the same
it really could have been gotten rid of without a replacement, although I (personally) didn't see the issue with the previous options since there was an option (like now) not to choose
to me this was trying to fix something that wasn't broken, since the original post made it sound like this was really a non-issue for most (if i misinterpreted sorry) but there was male, female, person, and no selection available so no one was really 'pressured' into indentifying as anything.
idk
this was fixing something that didn't necessarily need to get fixed
im not upset about it
just rather confused about the flavors
i mean its just a strange option to replace something that could have just been taken away.
i'm rambling now
k bye

 

[Ananfal]

I'm really not into this ice cream thing.
I mean if the point is to not have someone feel forced to identify as male, female, or person, than why choose ice cream?
it's the same pressure of choosing but with flavors (that don't full encompass all ice creams)
i know this probably sounds stupid
ice cream and gender aren't the same
but the idea of being forced to choose is the same
it really could have been gotten rid of without a replacement, although I (personally) didn't see the issue with the previous options since there was an option (like now) not to choose
to me this was trying to fix something that wasn't broken, since the original post made it sound like this was really a non-issue for most (if i misinterpreted sorry) but there was male, female, person, and no selection available so no one was really 'pressured' into indentifying as anything.
idk
this was fixing something that didn't necessarily need to get fixed
im not upset about it
just rather confused about the flavors
i mean its just a strange option to replace something that could have just been taken away.
i'm rambling now
k bye

Well, from what I understand the ice cream question has absolutely NO relation to the gender question. It's not a replacement for anything, nor is it intended as a "different" gender question. It was meant as just a silly, little game question.

As for it being a non-issue, I don't think that's what they meant. I believe they were worried about it becoming a bigger issue than it already was (implying that it had been an issue, if a small one, at some point).

 

[RAIN.cloud]

Well, from what I understand the ice cream question has absolutely NO relation to the gender question. It's not a replacement for anything, nor is it intended as a "different" gender question. It was meant as just a silly, little game question.

As for it being a non-issue, I don't think that's what they meant. I believe they were worried about it becoming a bigger issue than it already was (implying that it had been an issue, if a small one, at some point).

I didn't mean to say it was a replacement for the gender question, as in it's another way of asking, but it just took the space of that question. They could have gotten rid of it without adding something else.
I personally didn't choose a gender before because I rather like being ambiguous online And I felt like the options were fair.

It just seems that it was sort of fixing something that wasn't broken. But I've never heard/seen any complaints but then again I haven't been here long. I don't have an issue with it it just seems weird.

 

[Ananfal]

I didn't mean to say it was a replacement for the gender question, as in it's another way of asking, but it just took the space of that question. They could have gotten rid of it without adding something else.
I personally didn't choose a gender before because I rather like being ambiguous online And I felt like the options were fair but I guess if it was an issue it's solved now?

Right, but now there's a debate about how effective that solution is, and what problem it was solving exactly, and if it even solved that problem.

 

[RAIN.cloud]

Right, but now there's a debate about how effective that solution is, and what problem it was solving exactly, and if it even solved that problem.

If there was an issue with feeling as if one had to choose gender between m, f, and person, then yes it is solved
But I mean, it's just moving the choice to another piece of the profile
Before you could choose not to divulge the information which is now the default
Or post it in about me, which would be the same as having the option to click a button and show
All it did was change the way we can show our genders since the option to not choose was a thing previously
So I suppose it didn't really do anything at all really (the whole fixing what isn't broken thing)
I feel like it would have been more effective to add other identities to the list like demi or fluid or something like that, expand the options rather than wipe it out completely.

I don't have a problem with it not being there but it seems rather....pointless since there was an option to not show gender (which I do use)

Since we're talking what do you think?

 

[Ananfal]

Since we're talking what do you think?

Honestly, I'm not quite sure. There are valid points for having the choice, not having the choice, or expanding the choice. Debate is important not just because it let's other people's opinions get heard, but also because you learn new facts and hear other viewpoints that may change your mind.

I came in here thinking that the change was good. Switched to thinking that there were better options out there. Now I'm just confused as all heck. :P

 

[RAIN.cloud]

Honestly, I'm not quite sure. There are valid points for having the choice, not having the choice, or expanding the choice. Debate is important not just because it let's other people's opinions get heard, but also because you learn new facts and hear other viewpoints that may change your mind.

I came in here thinking that the change was good. Switched to thinking that there were better options out there. Now I'm just confused as all heck. :P

I think it mostly just caused confusion
I didn't even know it switched until my friend said something
I think for most it was rather sudden and out of nowhere

 

[Astaroth]

I want to clarify that this was in no way just about the nonbinary community, although that was the spark for the conversation and of course something we did want to address. But the other reasons for removing the gender field were a large part of the decision: protecting members from sexual predators and leaving the choice about whether/how to display personal info online entirely up to the user. (We actually wanted to remove the Occupation and Location fields too, but the system has those hard-coded and they aren't easily removed.)

Instead of having a gender write-in field specifically, the About Me section we've already had is an entire write-in field for all kinds of personal info. It is just as easy to check and means displaying your gender is as important as you want to make it. It even allows you space to explain your personal pronouns and any other info you'd want to add, if that's relevant to you.

Having to ask will only come into play with people who don't want it public or don't care enough to write it into their profile.

This isn't intended to take anything away. It was intended to put all of the power in your hands. Is gender important to you? Write about it. What about sexuality, religion, political stance, favorite ice cream flavor? Write all that in if you want, too. If you don't, this won't effect you other than it's no longer an at-a-glance beacon for creepers or people who don't care enough about getting to know you to scroll a little further down a page and read a paragraph.

I personally stand by this decision, but I am thinking the ice cream thing may not have been thought through. We really didn't realize a silly ice cream question would cause such a banana split in our member base.

 

[Pahn]

The best way to tell people everything there is to know about me:

ALSO STRAWBERRY IS BEST, SHUN THE HEATHENS

 

[Yatagarasu]

ALSO STRAWBERRY IS BEST, SHUN THE HEATHENS

STRAWBERRY TASTES LIKE DEATH.

#VanillaMasterRace #WhereIsMyRainbowIce-Cream?

 

[Hecatoncheires]

You may not have been affected by it personally, but people getting harassed just cos of what they have in their information is a thing that happens. Honestly, I'm annoyed I didn't come up with this solution when I was still on the security team: it nips the issue right in the bud with a simple change.

At the end of the day, looking after forum members is far more important than some people being mildly inconvenienced cos a thing is now a bit different.