(For Devs & Iwaku Users) What do you think about political correctness?
- Thread starter Akibahara
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Nah, my focus was more on the whole idea of a nation being founded on something. That's not how it goes. Sure, you've got people saying that their countries were founded on X/Y/Z, but that was a trend kicked off in the 19th Century by a bunch of German scholars aiming to help legitimise the newly formed German nation. They looked to the past, found a time in which the territories they laid claim to where controlled by the same kingdom/state/whateverthefuckyougetmypoint, and said "LOOK'EE HERE, THAT'S WHEN GERMANY DONE DID BEGUN".
This is what historians call a national narrative.
It's kind of bollocks when you properly look at it, but there you go. Everyone does it.
This is what historians call a national narrative.
It's kind of bollocks when you properly look at it, but there you go. Everyone does it.
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- Fantasy is my #1; I will give almost anything a chance if it has strong fantasy elements. Post apocalyptic, superhero, alternate history, science fantasy, some supernatural, romance, and a few fandoms (especially Game of Thrones) are also likely to catch my eye.
And which country, pray tell, was founded on the morals of Christian faith? I hope you're not referring to the United States when you say that, because you're wrong if you are (and if you're not, that's going to make the following post a little awkward, but I'll burn that bridge when I come to it if need be). It was founded on humanism and other philosophies just as much as it had anything to do with Christian morals. It was an influential factor, sure, but not so much that you can truly say it was founded on Christian morals, because that implies that that was the sole foundation upon which the rest was built. Honestly, the Bible probably isn't even in the top 3 for most influential pieces of text as it pertains to the Constitution, the founding document of the country. William Blackstone's Commentary on the Laws of England, various works by John Locke, and the Magna Carta all appear to have far stronger influences on it that the Christian holy book.
What's more, there are two solid pieces of documentary proof of this lack of Christian primacy in the founding of the nation. The first and most important is the utter lack of open Christian influence in the text of Constitution, wherein there is not even a mention of the faith's deity; as stated above, the rights and laws set forth therein came more from the likes of philosopher John Locke than the rules set out in the Bible. The second and more clearly stated piece is the Treaty of Tripoli from 1797, wherein John Adams, second President of the United States and prominent member of the founding fathers, wrote "the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion." I don't know about you, but I trust the word of one of the guys who was there on the ground floor more than I trust the revisionists who are pushing their agenda nowadays.
I do agree that people need to stop being so oversensitive about holiday well-wishers and their choice of phrasing, but your argument for it is flawed.
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Add that "morals of the Christian faith" is equivalent to saying "morals of Game of Thrones." The Bible features the all loving, benevolent God condoning rape and genocide on multiple occasions, both as a direct participant and in encouraging his people to do so. It's also extremely flimsy in that there are dozens of primary denominations of Christianity--not only
Religion was used as a scapegoat for Imperialism. The idea that it was the founding principle for morals in any country is just plain silly. Did it inspire literature and culture? Yes. Laws? (Especially modern laws?) No. Absolutely not.
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L
Lucia the Light
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I was not referring to the United States, for your information. As much as you Americans would like to believe it, the US is not the only Christian-founded country on the planet. Canada was shaped and created by the French and the English, both Christian nations. Mexico was also colonized by another Christian country, Spain. Great Britain, though not founded by Christian people, has her Queen as Head of State and Head of Church. So in what context, dear people, am I wrong in saying that these nations are founded on Christian morals?
And by the way, how exactly does it make sense that my argument is invalid because YOU do not agree with it? Someone needs to take a high school English class.
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Morals.
The Universal Declaration of Human Rights. (IE: Morals--based largely on what the Western World thinks is a good set of moral principles.)
Ten Commandments. (As an example. Exodus is full of rules western society has either discarded over time or never cared for to begin with.)
You'll notice a distinctly different pattern between the primarily 17th and 18th century thinking that western societies are built upon. (ex: Democracy > Monarchy, Human Rights > Killing someone for working on Sunday, Religious Freedoms > "Put no God before me", et cetera.)
The idea that Western society is built on Christian morals is laughable at best when more than half of the ten core commandments are discarded and ignored at will because western society determined centuries ago that they were bad ideas. Now, as someone who has studied English literature and read the Bible from beginning to end, I can absolutely say that the Bible has influenced modern society. Sometimes in negative ways, sometimes in positive ways. It's influenced our literature (ex: Tropes such as the sacrificial lion jump immediately to mind), and Christian iconography and symbolism is immediately recognizable and easily understood to a western audience.
However...
Every piece of evidence points contrary to the idea that western nations, in their modern form, were based on Christian ideals. Especially post-Renaissance when it became acceptable to question the grand moral authority of God. Then again, before the Renaissance, there were plenty of examples of bucking the church and rewriting the Bible to suit one's own needs too. (Look up the history of the Church of England. It was made to serve national interests, not religious ones!)
I'm happy to talk about all the wonderful and/or shitty influences religion has had, but human morals in western society aren't one of those things. If Christianity did have a direct influence on our morals in western society, it would be unequivocal unacceptable to speak ill of their deity--as that is one of the most overly repetitious laws set with some of the darkest consequences, including the drowning of the whole planet for not worshiping him--but that's blatantly not the case. It's almost in style to consistently make fun of Christianity, which runs straight contrary to what Christian morals would deem appropriate.
Would you like more examples?
R
Razilin
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- Fantasy is my #1; I will give almost anything a chance if it has strong fantasy elements. Post apocalyptic, superhero, alternate history, science fantasy, some supernatural, romance, and a few fandoms (especially Game of Thrones) are also likely to catch my eye.
Welp, like I said in that little parenthetical note, my semi-rant of a post was made kind of awkward by you not referring to the United States with that stuff. I made an apparently erroneous assumption based on your user profile information and my personal experience in which I had only ever heard of people claiming the United States was founded on Christian values.
Even so, apparently you missed the entire point of what I was saying. Just because the people who founded a country were Christian does not mean the nation itself was founded upon Christian principles. There is a major difference between something being created by Christians and something being founded on Christian beliefs. For example, Muslims created the first university; does that mean the idea of universities is founded upon Muslim morals? I would say no. Same goes for inventions that happened to be created by people of a certain faith that do not explicitly say that the things were made because Christian principles. That simple idea plus the documentary evidence make for a compelling case against the United States being a nation founded on Christian principles.
However, for Canada I will concede that my argument is on much shakier ground. The Canadian Constitution does in fact clearly state religious bias in various points, such as the Preamble to the Canadian Bill of Rights: "The Parliament of Canada, affirming that the Canadian Nation is founded upon principles that acknowledge the supremacy of God, the dignity and worth of the human person and the position of the family in a society of free men and free institutions..." There's your smoking gun for Canada being a Christian nation. There's probably an argument to be made that since that was done in 1960 and it was the first time any piece of the Canadian Constitution said anything of the sort, then that means it's a product of historical revisionism rather than the truth of how things were, but I don't feel like taking the time to do the research into the subject myself. The fact remains that that line is part of the constitutional documents of Canada to this day, so I have to concede that I was incorrect in saying your argument was flawed, because I mistakenly assumed you were speaking of the United States.
By the way, the word I used was flawed. Flawed, not invalid. Flawed is synonymous with 'not perfect,' invalid is synonymous with 'incorrect.' They hold very different meanings. Also, my note early on about my previous post being about the United States should have been more than enough to clue you in that it was not truly going to apply to you since you were talking about Canada (which you did not state anywhere in that post I responded to). Reading comprehension is an important skill. Perhaps it is not I who requires the educational benefits of a high school English class. Also, part of the reason I assumed you were speaking of the United States was because your user profile says you're from "Pheonix" and I assumed you meant a city in Arizona; in both the Arizona instance and the Canadian town, however, it's actually spelled Phoenix. I think they also teach spelling on high school English classes, so you can get a two for one deal going when you head that way for the reading comprehension help.
