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Also, someone would tell me if i was being rude, right?
I want to know if anyone thinks I'm being rude.
I want to know if anyone thinks I'm being rude.
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So my issue with all those skills is they cover a LOT. I can see psychology, knowing how to undo locks and such both tech based and not, and poisoning skills (seeing your poison stuff). Someone wholly devoted to being a spy is about knowing how to not get caught at all, so the other skills are a bit much in my opinion, but I'm mainly having trouble grasping the concept.
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I've shared six points I'm struggling with for Candi in a PM with Winter and given Winter permission to share anything they feel is important to add to the conversation.
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I don't think you were rude at all - although I'm not the one to talk, I'm pretty blunt and direct a lot of the time and it can get people riled up.
I'd say how @Esper explained it mostly allayed my suspicions. A lot of that is stuff that we can mostly assume reasonably competent people in a cyberpunk world would know, just that the rest of us haven't made it explicit. Like, nobody's mentioned they can drive, but I figure we can all at least get a car started and pointed in the right direction.
I know Ghost Tiger has a pretty bare-bones skill list, without a lot of detail, in part because I'm just lazy to list all the stuff she would be normal-people-competent at, and I figure it would be pretty obvious if there's something she ought to be able to do well. If @WinterO would like a more comprehensive public skill list I'll oblige, but I like playing my cards close to my chest and having some secrets.
I like games where you don't fill in everything about your character up front, you can leave blank spaces in and make things up as you go along for maximum dramatic effect. More plot bunnies that way.
I'd say how @Esper explained it mostly allayed my suspicions. A lot of that is stuff that we can mostly assume reasonably competent people in a cyberpunk world would know, just that the rest of us haven't made it explicit. Like, nobody's mentioned they can drive, but I figure we can all at least get a car started and pointed in the right direction.
I know Ghost Tiger has a pretty bare-bones skill list, without a lot of detail, in part because I'm just lazy to list all the stuff she would be normal-people-competent at, and I figure it would be pretty obvious if there's something she ought to be able to do well. If @WinterO would like a more comprehensive public skill list I'll oblige, but I like playing my cards close to my chest and having some secrets.
I like games where you don't fill in everything about your character up front, you can leave blank spaces in and make things up as you go along for maximum dramatic effect. More plot bunnies that way.
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Hey, if you want input on anything feel free to put it up in here.
Likewise if anyone has any comments on Ghost I'm all ears.
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@Esper
I'd like to share the points that Kat made, as they're really quite constructive in considering how to build an even better character while trimming down any unnecessary power creep. I really want to make sure you know that the only reason we're critiquing these things is to help. I'm sure we can all agree that a bit of teamwork and cooperation can go a long way to not just making a better RP experience for everyone, but helping each other learn in the process. :3
I'd like to share the points that Kat made, as they're really quite constructive in considering how to build an even better character while trimming down any unnecessary power creep. I really want to make sure you know that the only reason we're critiquing these things is to help. I'm sure we can all agree that a bit of teamwork and cooperation can go a long way to not just making a better RP experience for everyone, but helping each other learn in the process. :3
1. Expensive toys but lacks the financial resources to fit her old lifestyle? What about her new lifestyle on the streets? Where does she obtain all these different gadgets and what not on the streets and how does she pay for them?
2. Furthermore, when did she learn all of those different skills and from who, especially if she's now living on the streets? I can't imagine her bionics are that well built either if she has been living on the streets honestly, so... where'd she get all those bionics from? Illegal market?
3. I would also like to see more of her personality flaws and strengths- more specific- because "she is who she needs to be to get the job done" seems to imply that she doesn't really have a set personality outside of the jobs, which then leads me to believe she has some kind of mental health condition, which I don't think is what Esper is trying to go for, as far as I'm aware. I don't think the broad personality strokes will be good for consistency across the roleplay.
4. I also am struggling with her backstory. She's been a child of the corporation (how so?), yet she is unlisted and unnamed. If she was optimized to handle errands discreetly, I can see there being some sort of private channel/server to have her data, missions, whatever in, rather than what's public, but the problem is that she is some mysterious person of the corporation that no one knows about in the corporation but she has a boss... So how do they know she's a child of the corporation? How does Candi know she's a child of the corporation? It's not lining up, in my opinion.
5. I'd really love to learn more about how Candi came to be a child of the corporation, who she learned cyberware/hacking from, her parents, and a little bit about her relationship with the people who optimized her and used her as an errand gal of sorts. I feel like if Esper explores Candi's emotions a bit more, she'd be more relatable rather than her history kinda coming off as a "She is a robot and this is what she does" kind of preface.
6. The last thing I think would help is Candi being specialized in two or three skills, depending on the level of expertise. Cyberware and security seems to be up her alley, along with the mixed martial arts. I think computer programming can be melded into cyberware tbh. So, something like, "cyberware security & programming, mixed martial arts, street connections (since she has lived on the streets, this makes sense)" I think would help everything be more succinct.
2. Furthermore, when did she learn all of those different skills and from who, especially if she's now living on the streets? I can't imagine her bionics are that well built either if she has been living on the streets honestly, so... where'd she get all those bionics from? Illegal market?
3. I would also like to see more of her personality flaws and strengths- more specific- because "she is who she needs to be to get the job done" seems to imply that she doesn't really have a set personality outside of the jobs, which then leads me to believe she has some kind of mental health condition, which I don't think is what Esper is trying to go for, as far as I'm aware. I don't think the broad personality strokes will be good for consistency across the roleplay.
4. I also am struggling with her backstory. She's been a child of the corporation (how so?), yet she is unlisted and unnamed. If she was optimized to handle errands discreetly, I can see there being some sort of private channel/server to have her data, missions, whatever in, rather than what's public, but the problem is that she is some mysterious person of the corporation that no one knows about in the corporation but she has a boss... So how do they know she's a child of the corporation? How does Candi know she's a child of the corporation? It's not lining up, in my opinion.
5. I'd really love to learn more about how Candi came to be a child of the corporation, who she learned cyberware/hacking from, her parents, and a little bit about her relationship with the people who optimized her and used her as an errand gal of sorts. I feel like if Esper explores Candi's emotions a bit more, she'd be more relatable rather than her history kinda coming off as a "She is a robot and this is what she does" kind of preface.
6. The last thing I think would help is Candi being specialized in two or three skills, depending on the level of expertise. Cyberware and security seems to be up her alley, along with the mixed martial arts. I think computer programming can be melded into cyberware tbh. So, something like, "cyberware security & programming, mixed martial arts, street connections (since she has lived on the streets, this makes sense)" I think would help everything be more succinct.
E
Esper
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1. Expensive toys but lacks the financial resources to fit her old lifestyle? What about her new lifestyle on the streets? Where does she obtain all these different gadgets and what not on the streets and how does she pay for them?
She was owned by a corporation as an asset. Her identity was erased. Those within the business likely were told she was an unpaid intern. She was groomed to talk her way into place and had a bunch of parts stuck into her to do that even better. She was bought and paid for and effectively was a slave.
2. Furthermore, when did she learn all of those different skills and from who, especially if she's now living on the streets? I can't imagine her bionics are that well built either if she has been living on the streets honestly, so... where'd she get all those bionics from? Illegal market?
She was groomed to do these things. She isn't homeless however. She shares a residence with Rook and they work together. She did run away from where she worked and disappeared with her skills, but now those bills are 100% hers to pay.
3. I would also like to see more of her personality flaws and strengths- more specific- because "she is who she needs to be to get the job done" seems to imply that she doesn't really have a set personality outside of the jobs, which then leads me to believe she has some kind of mental health condition, which I don't think is what Esper is trying to go for, as far as I'm aware. I don't think the broad personality strokes will be good for consistency across the roleplay.
She likely does have some form of PTSD and programming. It's consistent with the mentality that a soldier might have, compromising her own values in order to stomach work. However in a dystopian society I would say that mental health is probably less a concern if it means more profit for a business.
4. I also am struggling with her backstory. She's been a child of the corporation (how so?), yet she is unlisted and unnamed. If she was optimized to handle errands discreetly, I can see there being some sort of private channel/server to have her data, missions, whatever in, rather than what's public, but the problem is that she is some mysterious person of the corporation that no one knows about in the corporation but she has a boss... So how do they know she's a child of the corporation? How does Candi know she's a child of the corporation? It's not lining up, in my opinion.
Businessmen lie and do shady things all the time. It is likely she is listed as an asset rather than a person and they have doctored paperwork. It also would not surprise me if they had backed up information somewhere. I don't see a business admitting to any of that however, let alone trying to steal someone's ideas for profit.
5. I'd really love to learn more about how Candi came to be a child of the corporation, who she learned cyberware/hacking from, her parents, and a little bit about her relationship with the people who optimized her and used her as an errand gal of sorts. I feel like if Esper explores Candi's emotions a bit more, she'd be more relatable rather than her history kinda coming off as a "She is a robot and this is what she does" kind of preface.
She was bought and paid for. She doesn't hack. Rook hacks however and she is learning from Rook. Rook might be able to tell her to stick Malware somewhere and she could do that, but that's the equivalent of knowing how to stick a flash drive preloaded with an executable file into a USB port. She has as far as she knows does not have parents and at this point in her life would probably be bitter towards them.
A struggle to be a person and not one of her masks was in fact intended for her and an idea I personally find interesting.
6. The last thing I think would help is Candi being specialized in two or three skills, depending on the level of expertise. Cyberware and security seems to be up her alley, along with the mixed martial arts. I think computer programming can be melded into cyberware tbh. So, something like, "cyberware security & programming, mixed martial arts, street connections (since she has lived on the streets, this makes sense)" I think would help everything be more succinct.
As we have covered she doesn't hack yet I will gloss over that. Her street connections are from working and paying others off as muscle or providers of strictly illegal things. Street connections would be to say she knows criminals (fences and information brokers) as a plot hook. Not that they are going to do things for her for free, but at the end of the day she was trained to con her way into places, with a team or without depending on the job. She can't really fight and has no interest in doing so. That isn't what people come to her for or what she was trained for. She's a con woman and thief now.
As far as Computer Programming going into Cyberware. She is a mechanic and not an engineer. She also would prefer to leave the hacking and programming to someone who isn't going to mess it up, such as Rook. The difference there would be that she understands how to tinker with things from the mechanical end, but does not have the schooling to develop her own technology. You want your employees smart enough to work the machines, not replace you.
She could open something up she has the schematics for or has worked with before and keep it in good working order, but she isn't in example Tony Stark who can improvise his way into a whole power suit. That is beyond the scope of her interests. She can however look at a schematic she stole and reasonably know who she can sell it to.
She was owned by a corporation as an asset. Her identity was erased. Those within the business likely were told she was an unpaid intern. She was groomed to talk her way into place and had a bunch of parts stuck into her to do that even better. She was bought and paid for and effectively was a slave.
2. Furthermore, when did she learn all of those different skills and from who, especially if she's now living on the streets? I can't imagine her bionics are that well built either if she has been living on the streets honestly, so... where'd she get all those bionics from? Illegal market?
She was groomed to do these things. She isn't homeless however. She shares a residence with Rook and they work together. She did run away from where she worked and disappeared with her skills, but now those bills are 100% hers to pay.
3. I would also like to see more of her personality flaws and strengths- more specific- because "she is who she needs to be to get the job done" seems to imply that she doesn't really have a set personality outside of the jobs, which then leads me to believe she has some kind of mental health condition, which I don't think is what Esper is trying to go for, as far as I'm aware. I don't think the broad personality strokes will be good for consistency across the roleplay.
She likely does have some form of PTSD and programming. It's consistent with the mentality that a soldier might have, compromising her own values in order to stomach work. However in a dystopian society I would say that mental health is probably less a concern if it means more profit for a business.
4. I also am struggling with her backstory. She's been a child of the corporation (how so?), yet she is unlisted and unnamed. If she was optimized to handle errands discreetly, I can see there being some sort of private channel/server to have her data, missions, whatever in, rather than what's public, but the problem is that she is some mysterious person of the corporation that no one knows about in the corporation but she has a boss... So how do they know she's a child of the corporation? How does Candi know she's a child of the corporation? It's not lining up, in my opinion.
Businessmen lie and do shady things all the time. It is likely she is listed as an asset rather than a person and they have doctored paperwork. It also would not surprise me if they had backed up information somewhere. I don't see a business admitting to any of that however, let alone trying to steal someone's ideas for profit.
5. I'd really love to learn more about how Candi came to be a child of the corporation, who she learned cyberware/hacking from, her parents, and a little bit about her relationship with the people who optimized her and used her as an errand gal of sorts. I feel like if Esper explores Candi's emotions a bit more, she'd be more relatable rather than her history kinda coming off as a "She is a robot and this is what she does" kind of preface.
She was bought and paid for. She doesn't hack. Rook hacks however and she is learning from Rook. Rook might be able to tell her to stick Malware somewhere and she could do that, but that's the equivalent of knowing how to stick a flash drive preloaded with an executable file into a USB port. She has as far as she knows does not have parents and at this point in her life would probably be bitter towards them.
A struggle to be a person and not one of her masks was in fact intended for her and an idea I personally find interesting.
6. The last thing I think would help is Candi being specialized in two or three skills, depending on the level of expertise. Cyberware and security seems to be up her alley, along with the mixed martial arts. I think computer programming can be melded into cyberware tbh. So, something like, "cyberware security & programming, mixed martial arts, street connections (since she has lived on the streets, this makes sense)" I think would help everything be more succinct.
As we have covered she doesn't hack yet I will gloss over that. Her street connections are from working and paying others off as muscle or providers of strictly illegal things. Street connections would be to say she knows criminals (fences and information brokers) as a plot hook. Not that they are going to do things for her for free, but at the end of the day she was trained to con her way into places, with a team or without depending on the job. She can't really fight and has no interest in doing so. That isn't what people come to her for or what she was trained for. She's a con woman and thief now.
As far as Computer Programming going into Cyberware. She is a mechanic and not an engineer. She also would prefer to leave the hacking and programming to someone who isn't going to mess it up, such as Rook. The difference there would be that she understands how to tinker with things from the mechanical end, but does not have the schooling to develop her own technology. You want your employees smart enough to work the machines, not replace you.
She could open something up she has the schematics for or has worked with before and keep it in good working order, but she isn't in example Tony Stark who can improvise his way into a whole power suit. That is beyond the scope of her interests. She can however look at a schematic she stole and reasonably know who she can sell it to.
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@Esper I think condensing your skills and labeling how proficient/skilled you are in each one would help clear up some of our confusion, so we can see how they all fit together. As currently it seems like we're on different pages about skill levels.
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And this is why it doesn't belong as open discussion, because it is pedantic and about book keeping.
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We're trying to help. What is pedantic about offering suggestions to help everyone understand your character better?
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Esper
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Some was left open for character development or letting the GM or other players to have an 'in'. What was it about playing things close to the chest? If there was an issue during the game where the spotlight was being stolen that is a reasonable ask to redact something. At this point she has not entered play yet for anyone to get to know her or make connections with, hence the pedantic part. I haven't read anyone's backstory yet. I looked at skill sets and from there decided what might be a reasonable way my character would know yours, which seems to be a more reasonable approach than arguing over skill sets.
i.e: My character knows yours because they're a hired gun. Or yours knows mine from doing a patch job at some point on busted cyberware to lay low from the law.
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We don't want an 'in' on her skills, Esper. She's your character, not ours. We'd like to see more detailed explanations of her skills and a focus on a specialty or two. You've got a great start, don't get me wrong, but there is confusion surrounding your character that we all want to hash out, and that's why Eldrid suggested condensing your skills and labeling proficiency.
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Let me explain my perspective briefly if I may.
I, like Ariel and Kat only listed a few general skills and let my background explain the rest of my role: I break in, whether by an explosion, information my client gave me (or I got on account of Ghost), or through a hacking tool I purchased for the mission, and either steal stuff, kill someone, plant fake evidence, etc. That's what he does for a living.
You on the other hand I'm having trouble associating with a role in the party to as your skills are currently very broad from what I see. I just want to understand what role you play in the party so I can properly make a connection with your character.
I, like Ariel and Kat only listed a few general skills and let my background explain the rest of my role: I break in, whether by an explosion, information my client gave me (or I got on account of Ghost), or through a hacking tool I purchased for the mission, and either steal stuff, kill someone, plant fake evidence, etc. That's what he does for a living.
You on the other hand I'm having trouble associating with a role in the party to as your skills are currently very broad from what I see. I just want to understand what role you play in the party so I can properly make a connection with your character.
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Sarnai
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If by "everyone" you mean you and Kat, then yes that sure is everyone. Pretty sure it is just you two however seeing how other people have already shrugged and accepted the further clarifications.
Sure does seem like you are trying to tell her what skills she is and is not allowed to have, what with all the telling her what skills her character shouldn't have.
If we want to play the "just a critique" game, then when and where did you character learn to use guns @EldridSmith ? Who taught him how to use an automatic rifle, a marksman rifle, a pistol, or long range shooting? These are all wildly diverse skills that take years of practice, does he know how to maintain them, do repairs, does he have a source for spare parts? If not, does he have a reliable person who can do all that for him and keep it off the books? How is his cyberware maintained? Who works on it? What if his armor is damaged, where does he get replacement parts, who fixes it?
@Kat what does "martial training" even mean? Was she trained in strategy, tactics, how to lead a fire team, doing an officers work, or was she a grunt, and knows how to use various kinds of weaponry? Maybe she learned to be an artillery crew mate! Or a sailor on a carrier! Those are all ENTIRELY different paths, but they could all be defined as "martial training", and the same thing with "dual weapon training". Fighting with two knives is VASTLY different from fighting with two swords, which are both different from fighting with a sword and a knife, all of which have nothing to do with firing two pistols at the same time.
But guess what! None of that matters. It doesn't at all. Because this is a creative writing exercise, not a technical manual, and honestly if there is one actual critique I could level at either of you, it would be that you really don't need anywhere near the level of minutia in your stuff @Kat . The exact size of the plates in your character add nothing to the storytelling, it is just clutter.
And for a final point, at the end of the day, none of this should be an open discussion. If the GM has a problem with a character, the player and the GM should discuss it. Additionally, players should be given some benefit of the doubt, allowed to RP their character and show how they are going to play it before people pass judgement. If a particular player is taking up all the space or consistently overshadowing every other character, then that is a problem that can be brought up. But until then, give people a chance to disappoint you before you start going at them.
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Sarnai
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"I, like Ariel and Kat only listed a few general skills"
"your skills are currently very broad from what I see."
These are the same thing, you are saying her doing the thing you are doing is bad. If anything, Esper is being far more limiting and specific with her skills then you are, as your extremely broad skill categories leave massive amounts of things open to interpretation, allowing you to just pull stuff out whenever you want and go "Well, it falls under X" thing.
More over, why does everyone have problems with Esper's sheet and not mine? They are extremely similar.
E
Esper
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Charisma based Thief. Confidence Person, Con Woman. However she is a specialized thief in that she steals Cyberware and Security Schematics and information relating to them. At first it was for a corporation to get one up on their competition, now it is for the highest bidder, but between those pay outs she does a 'How Stuff Works" online show based off her understanding of some of the more popular pieces on the market.
A Jewel Thief knows jewels.
A Tech Thief knows their way around tech and the tech she steals is a niche market.
I do however feel the need to list out her specific skills because outside of them she does not have many. She was a workaholic by threat of force and now she isn't. So what that means to her? She has no idea yet and I was waiting for the world to unfold to see where that goes. Her life was work/sleep/work/sleep in an endless cycle. She was mostly okay with that after a while in the way someone with no way of their situation learns to say it's a new normal.
I am happy to talk concepts at length, really, but that's not to me the fun way to learn about someone's character.
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im hesitant to bring this up because im self conscious, but honestly i think our characters are quite similar, workaholics. mentally stunted individuals who do one thing and do it remarkably well, a totally valid and, imo super cool, design choice.
i havent read the updates yet so bear with me, but yeah, i think what weve uncovered is maybe just a misunderstanding. im almost 100% sure your understanding of your character is balanced and just fine, its jist hoe it was written out in specifics. and honestly, thats good enough for me.