Cultural Appropriation

[Brovo]

Just because people say feminism is about hating men or getting more privilege than men doesn't make it true.

I found the answer to this was realizing that feminism is not a singular ideology, but in fact, several, in the same way that Christianity is more than just Catholicism. You have radical feminists, certainly, but also liberal feminists. Choice-based, intersectional, et cetera. Ergo, you have some extreme feminists, and some level-headed moderate feminists, who pursue the same goal (equality for women), in different ways. Which, makes sense, given that it's an ideology that's around a century old and has millions of followers and which has achieved significant political sway. Which is why I've changed my opinion on it over the past few months I've been reading up on it when I've learned more about how it works. For example: I tend to identify well with what liberal feminists typically state their beliefs to be, or the "Ifeminists" the university link mentions at the bottom, but I find marxist feminists to be totally deranged.

As for cultural appropriation, yeah. I understand it at least a little better now. I still disagree with it, but I'll respectfully nod and thank you for sharing with me anyway. Maybe I'll come to understand it a little better simply with time like I did feminism. We'll see.

 

[Hecatoncheires]

>;[

 

[Brovo]

>;[

We're playing nice uncle Grumpy. You can relax now. I respect Ozzy and he respects me. No need to trigger memories of the debate tag, do we?

 

[Astaroth]

MUTUAL RESPECT AND NIPPLE FLASHES FOR ALL.

 

[Hecatoncheires]

>;[ >;[

 

[SacredWarrior]

Remember my first post where I was saying that people misrepresent and misquote and make misguided accusations of cultural appropriation? Kind of like they do with feminism? Just because people say feminism is about hating men or getting more privilege than men doesn't make it true.

I'm also not trying to equate religion to skin color, but I can see where you took that away from what I said. I was using your example group- "white people"- and then applying most of the common cases in which something qualifies as cultural appropriation to the example. (Although, of course, certain religions are more commonly associated with certain ethnic groups and so racism does in fact often come into play when people are being assholes to people of that religion.)

I don't think mocking religion makes you a racist or an Islamophobe/Christianophobe/whatever. I think there are ways to poke fun at religion without being a dick. What I am saying is, don't be a dick.

TL;DR every message I've posted in this thread: DON'T BE A DICK.

And once again, I will clarify that I am not directing these statements at ANYONE in particular, and certainly not @Brovo.

On the subject of the jazz musicians, maybe I can help clarify. The issue with the white musicians playing jazz wasn't so much that they were white and jazz is only for black people. You can see today that this is not an issue; jazz and soul and many other genres pioneered by black artists are wildly popular and fairly even across racial demographics, and (almost) no one really bats an eye.

The problem was that at the time, black musicians were often struggling because of racial discrimination in the first place... and then you had white artists come along and cover their songs and get more popular. Maybe the most famous example would be the song "Hound Dog". Everyone attributes it to Elvis. I mean, it's the ICONIC Elvis song, right? But it was actually by Big Mama Thornton. And it was more popular coming from a white man than from a black woman. And race and culture absolutely played into that. Even a white woman was better received, because Janis Joplin upstaged Big Mama again just a couple years later by covering another of her songs. You could argue about maybe these artists were more talented, but not when a pattern emerges of this happening repeatedly with many artists and many songs from the time. And jazz was something that black Americans pioneered, and often was rooted in elements of life as a black American, and then white people came along and profited off of their work. Which for some reason is a touchy subject for black people.

Does that make a little more sense?

You have a point BUT I wanna point out one song. I Will Always Love You. That song was originally by Dolly Parton who is a white woman but was covered by Whitney Houston who was a black woman and it actually became much more popular because of her. Hell it's the ICONIC Whitney song.

 

[Kestrel]

Using something in a way it is not meant to is something we collectively do. It's how we thrive and improve. The internet wasn't meant for roleplaying originally, but look at how much enjoyment we're getting out of Iwaku. More controversial might be that you can buy illegal weapons, drugs and hire assassins online with just a little wizardry. Still, I think this whole practice defines us as a species.

Also, fun tidbit for gamers. Shiva is a four-armed entity most commonly portrayed as male who apparently has a snake fetish and nothing to do with ice. Do you feel super-insensitive playing Final Fantasy?

The thing about cultural appropriation is that it's a very negative approach. When I had dreadlocks, up to couple years back, I actually had a woman come up to me who said she thought it was really cool and enthusiastically began telling me about their history and meaning in her culture. We exchanged numbers and hung out a couple times (and made some great food.) This woman missed her homeland, and because of that she loved sharing her culture with interested people she met. Rather than feeling I stole or offended part of her culture, she was proud pieces of her culture breached borders and happy to tell me more.

Same thing with the Maori I met in New Zealand. Admittedly there's a big division, but when I went backpacking I met so many Maori that were proud to share their culture with me. Not just the ones who get paid money for it either. Though I must admit that at 20 I didn't know how to respond to the question when I was going to marry, the interaction enriched me and really taught me more of their culture.

Also in New Zealand there were the 'Hare Krishnas', which is basically a branch stemming from India, who were actively searching to involve others in their beliefs and cultures and had singing parades through the cityblocks and were friendly to everyone. Despite a lot of mockery they endured. But you know, as a group they rarely ever gave a fuck and let all the negative wash off of them instead focusing on the positive. They had their own views, certainly, but they were most open to discussing other ideologies over the table and always did so respectfully. Okay, sometimes with a little sass, but still.

I think it's a matter of perspective. Are you proud of your culture and want to see it thrive, even in forms it was never meant to? Or do you want a stick to hit others with cause you're insecure? Ask any young black person with dreadlocks what they did to deserve them. Are they culturally appropriating their selves?

There's plenty of ways to insult a culture, but when someone is trying to involve their selves in it for something positive, I don't think it's right to call that cultural appropriation.

 

[Astaroth]

@SacredWarrior Absolutely! But Dolly recorded that song 20 or so years after the era we're talking about in the first place, and then Whitney covered it ANOTHER 20 years after that. So you have to realize that there were (thankfully!) almost 50 years of social progress between the jazz movement and Whitney's OWNING Dolly.

 

[Astaroth]

There's plenty of ways to insult a culture, but when someone is trying to involve their selves in it for something positive, I don't think it's right to call that cultural appropriation.

This right here is actually a pretty good marker for telling if something is actually cultural appropriation or not.

And your personal experiences are great examples of why cultural exchange is very much a positive!

 

[Hellis]

Dammit Brovo. Don't tag me. I saw it it and read the entire thread. And now I have nothing to add.

Other then the greatest thing to happen to Sweden was Kebab and it autowins any argument I ever had with anti-immigration/racist towards arabs people. Screaming their silly heads of about swedish culture going down the drain becouse we take in people from other countries. At which point you explain the King they ideolize (See: Carolus Rex.) actually respected the turks and brought alot of their innovations and customs to sweden. Coffee, the lifeblood of sweden, was something the Turks gave us. Then you point to the thing they likely spend atleast once a month eating: Kebab. Becouse it should just be called the Swedish national meal at this point. Hell. The amount of food in general. I have a hard time believing these people only eat at swedish "husmankost" places.


But yeah. Enlightening discussion chaps. I'm off to eat at my local turkish place, then sit and scream as a Bosnian born kid kicks a soccer ball into a goal while representing my 100 year old swedish Football club. Multiculturalism is the shit.

 

[Space Cowboy]

ITT: white people

@Kooriryu
@Kooriryu
@Kooriryu

 

[Kooriryu]

#thediscourseisamess

And that is all you schadenfreude lovin' fucks are getting out of me. Tired of interacting with kids on this shit.

EDIT: I saw that fuckin' Beetlejuice reference, you fuck.

 

[Tegan]

This could be a looooong post, because there are so many, many, many arguments for both sides. But I am kinda drunk and don't wanna.

Many cultures have exchanged ideas, goods, and ways of life--for good and ill.


It's all well and good to love a certain aspect of a certain culture and appreciate it. Good for you, that's how you learn and grow into a more worldly person.
Some members of that culture may appreciate this about you, others will not. Don't be surprised: this is natural, and even justified. Don't react with anger or excuses.

Be humbled by it. You will learn so much more.

You are a guest in someone else's history and culture: don't be a poorly behaved guest.

 

[Space Cowboy]

You are a guest in someone else's history and culture: don't be a poorly behaved guest.

Ooh, that's good. Remembering that one.

 

[Tegan]

I need to drink more often. :D


It's Mooooonday~

 

[Gwazi Magnum]

Eh, I tend to take an outsider perspective to this.

I don't like to view any sort of behaviour or act as "_____ culture".
I just look at something and go "Is there a logical reason for this?" and "Do I enjoy it?" and then choose to do it based on that.

That being said, I'm born and raised Canadian, and spend most of my time on the Internet (which is America/Europe dominated in the english speaking portions).
So naturally I tend to follow more Canadian, American and European culture in general, but that's simply due to exposure.

I find the entire idea of "This fashion/practice is for _____ group" to honestly be both idiotic and something humanity in the future will look back on and be appalled that anyone actually looked at it in such a manner.

By all means track, record and be aware of the history. History is pretty important.
But don't ever start going around claiming only specific people can do it, and that other's aren't allowed, or even that other's need to be careful or are guests.
We're human's, we have behaviours and identities, these change all the time. Maybe your time is better spent focusing on your own instead of getting offended by someone elses.