Church Shootings

[Shiri]

There's been a shooting close-ish to here too. Many well wishes to those who have survived these terrible incidents.

 

[Rare]

You can hold as much sentimental value to it as you want, but that's not what I was getting at.

Church's structurally speaking are just like any other building.
They have supports, bricks, wood etc.

Nothing about it's build, design etc. would be able to protect someone from a shooting.
Doors are open, windows everywhere.

Someone could walk into it with a gun just as easily as another building, like a school or a mall.
And no amount of "I feel churches are special" will deter a killer away, otherwise we'd deter them away simply by saying "I feel killing is wrong".

Seriously, this isn't a hard concept.
Churches don't tend to come with bullet proof glass, iron gates etc.

I know that a church is a building, I even said it. I know that words wouldn't stop killers on their track, so would give them therapy and support. But, you still have to be respectful of the person and not say shit like that. You don't go to kids with special needs and say that they are just normal people. Of course, people and buildings aren't the same thing. I was showing you that you just don't go and disrespecting peoples' morals.

Also, some churches do have iron gates. Even known, they use it for decoration. But, they still are iron gates after all.

Yet not all of us are running about killing people, are we?

So clearly there's something going on other than "hate" causing these acts of violence.
And it's these things that we can address, try to work on and fix for the betterment of society.

For one big example, child abuse.
You reduce the amount of child abuse and I guarantee the amount of shooting will also decrease.

I hope you know that we can't stop child abuse. There are parents or people that are going to abuse the child on accident or on purpose. Such, you can decrease the amount, but you can't truly stop it. Which means that there are still going to be killers, child abusers, and many other horrible things.

Since I don't want to get ban or scorn by other people (that I might of hurt or offended), I am going to pull out of this argument.

 

[Gwazi Magnum]

But, you still have to be respectful of the person and not say shit like that.

I stated a structural fact.
If Construction offends you there's nothing I can do to help it.

Also, some churches do have iron gates. Even known, they use it for decoration. But, they still are iron gates after all.

Churches don't tend to come with bullet proof glass, iron gates etc.

Please, pay attention to the wording and don't just jump on the "You're Generalizing!" bandwagon.

I hope you know that we can't stop child abuse. There are parents or people that are going to abuse the child on accident or on purpose. Such, you can decrease the amount,

You reduce the amount of child abuse

Once again, pay attention to the wording and don't jump to conclusions.

 

[Rare]

Please, pay attention to the wording and don't just jump on the "You're Generalizing!" bandwagon.

Once again, pay attention to the wording and don't jump to conclusions.

I made a mistake, sorry for that. I didn't jump to that bandwagon, I just didn't read the thread carefully than I thought.

I stated a structural fact.
If Construction offends you there's nothing I can do to help it.

Construction? What do you mean by that? Do you mean the Constitution? I am confused, care to explain?

 

[Gwazi Magnum]

I made a mistake, sorry for that. I didn't jump to that bandwagon, I just didn't read the thread carefully than I thought.

It's fine, at least you're admitting to it. :)

Construction? What do you mean by that? Do you mean the Constitution? I am confused, care to explain?

I mean I simply stated a fact that a Church structurally is a building like any other.
So there's nothing physically stopping a shooting from happening there rather than elsewhere.
Hence I don't have some sudden shock over it being at a Church.

Do I feel bad about the shooting and the victims? Of course.
But there's nothing about it being a Church that adds any shock value to me.

I know some people might feel worse about it because of how they connect with churches.
But someone willing to kill isn't going to let something like "It's a holy place" get in the way unless if they're heavily religious to the same religion as the church.
Which leads back to the structure of the Church, which not being a very reinforced building generally I have no reason to excuse from possible shooting targets or be shocked when someone does pick one.

I mean, people shoot schools all the time. Places where many of our youngest and most vulnerable go, a Church shouldn't be a shock considering that.

 

[Temet Nosce]

I know it's the unpopular opinion, but I agree with Gwazi's sentiments that a church is just a building. Buildings cast from brick and mortar can be rebuilt. Unfortunately, a family isn't that easy to rebuild. I do think that America places too much emphasis on punishing rather than rehabilitating, but some crimes are simply too heinous. Murderers and child molesters don't gain any sympathy from me. I doubt that he'll ever be fit to live among a civilized society, and he'll simply have to live with the consequences of his actions.

We all make mistakes, but there are some mistakes that simply can't be rectified. When you kill a man, you widow his wife and orphan his children and vice versa. The damage is too great to solve through the death of one idiot. If they choose to give him the death penalty, I'll be the first one to give support however as it is clear that someone like him has long ago forfeited his rights to live.

I think we are all allowing the setting of the shooting overshadow what really happened however. Dylann Roof was attempting to start a race war, and that is a very scary thing in the uncertain times that we live in. Especially when race is such a sensitive issue.

As far as racism itself goes, that is something nearly as old as human civilization itself ^^;

I don't see the race wars going away any time in the hood, or some places in the Deep South where kids are bred and raised in homes where the philosophy of 'all niggers must hang' is largely unchanged.

 

[Temet Nosce]

In regards to the 'Go Home, You're Drunk' rating, I'm not going to say anything inflammatory. I just thought this served well to pursue an issue that seems to arise with this type of thing, and it's related to the topic.

But would it have been worse or better if it had been a school or a movie theater? I get that church provides a sense of safety and well-being to some, but don't other facilities do the same? Many kids who live in difficult situations find refuge in school where they can feel acknowledged among their peers. To some families, a movie theater is a rare treat that allows them to spend time with their kids. Would you not say that they provide similar shelter?

I'm not trying to compare education or Hollywood to religion, but it is an issue that arises. Would this have been any less tragic if it happened elsewhere? The damage is the same is it not?

I'll say it one more time. A church is merely a building. I know that many most likely think of me as an overly aggressive atheist from my tone, but I assure that is not the case. I have read the scripture, psalms, and parables. The power of a church lies not in the wood framework that supports it, but in the people who gather to worship. Any time two or more people gather to pray together, I hold that in the same reverence as I would of a pastor giving the Sunday mass to 200 people.

Quakers used to gather in basements to pray together. Would anyone daresay that their worship was less meaningful?

The church was most likely targeted for the same reason that schools and movie theaters are. They make easy targets. It's a collection of unarmed people all amassed in one place with very little to defend themselves. There should be less importance placed on the setting of the shooting. I doubt it would have been any less tragic to the families that suffered if it was elsewhere. If we spent all of the energy we spend pissing about the sanctity of a building and used it to find ways to deal with these monsters, there would be less crying mothers and grieving widows.

Because this will happen again. Just as light is day and dark is night, evil has always held a certain spot in the heart of men. There will always be more Charles Manson's, James Holme's, and Charles Whitman's. All we can do is search for new ways to stop these threats before they become a problem. Considering the fact that we now live in the most peaceful era that has ever existed, I'd say we're doing a pretty damn good job so far.

 

[Rare]

I am not even going to argue with you, Vindice. I already told Magic that I wasn't going to keep this going, so I don't want to start another one with you. But, nice post you got there!

Anyways, did you all hear that the NRA blames the pastor for Charleston deaths.

 

[Zen]

Hatred is an exoskeleton that people pick up when they're missing other parts of their identity.

^^^ This. So very true.

 

[Jorick]

Anyways, did you all hear that the NRA blames the pastor for Charleston deaths.

As the NRA was quick to correct, that was one board member, not the NRA as a whole. :P

But yeah, no surprise at all. Pro-gun folks always like to deflect and say gun violence is caused by anti-gun laws. They talk about it as if wholesome individuals carrying guns give off some kind of anti-violence field that would totally prevent horrible people from using their own guns. It's rather amusing.

 

[ASTA]

Incidents like this will become more common as we chug along through the 21st century.

 

[Asmodeus]

Why's that?

 

[Fel of the Eternal Forest]

five and a half minutes of pure truth.

 

[Zen]

From the Washington Post..

"In 2012, there were 8,855 criminal gun homicides in the FBI's homicide database, but only 258 gun killings by private citizens that were deemed justifiable, which the FBI defines as "the killing of a felon, during the commission of a felony, by a private citizen."
That works out to one justifiable gun death for every 34 unjustifiable gun deaths."

Source: http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...34-innocent-people-die/?tid=pm_business_pop_b

["At some point, we as a country will have to reckon with the fact that this type of mass violence does not happen in other advanced countries," Barack Obama said today in response to the killings in Charleston. "It doesn't happen in other places with this kind of frequency."]

Source: http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...a-to-really-believe-it/?tid=pm_business_pop_b

 

[Dipper]

Oh boy, here come the anti-gun folks. I'm not going to involve myself in that argument because I'm sweaty and my fingers feel like they're going to fall off from too much Fallout, but my stance is pretty clear on that.

Anyway, I think of this incident as a hate crime rather than religiously motivated. It was a black church after all, and what's the easiest place to find a bunch of black people together in one place? Well, a church usually. And nobody really goes to church with a gun or knife, so it's easy to open fire on people without getting hurt when they don't stand a chance to fight back. And as much as this all sucks, and as much as we all hate it, I don't think getting rid of racism is going to be as easy as most people think. It's natural for humans to group together and dislike anyone not in their group; people want to live around others who look, think, and act like they do. That's just natural, and sometimes some humans are more aggressive, unstable, or hateful than others.

Welcome to the wonder of human diversity.

I'm a Christian, and it does kind of hurt to know that this was a church, but I still don't think that was the reason. I'm more shocked by the fact that there's still that much hatred between races for such a thing to happen. Humans can be cruel bastards.

 

[Asmodeus]

DAMN!

I thought we had this cracked.

Debater No Debating

Thank God social media wasn't around during the Holocaust. Sometimes you've just gotta say "Fuck off!", ignore the evidence/rhetoric, and make an ill-informed decision. If I was in power, here are some stupid, ill-informed decisions I would make:

1) No guns for you.
2) Racists = Terrorists.
3) Stop polluting.
4) Women are great.
5) Tax the drugs.
6) Hey, Islam. Let's talk about this, okay?
7) Yes, Mr Poor Person with cancer. You can come into the hospital.
8) So, about that Space Race...
9) Shut up, Hipsters. Just shut up.


OOOH, ASMO'S A FAGGOT LIBERAL WHO'S GONNA DESTROY SOCIETY!

Well, just roll the fucking dice. Seriously, we are now at a stage where nothing can get done, no one is entitled to their opinion, everything can be argued both ways, and everything is just a scrap of meat to endlessly, endlessly maul with debates.

Let's have some fucking tyranny. Implement points 1-9 above through martial law, and don't be a dick about it.

If this was Babylon 5, Sheridan would do it!

 

[Brovo]

If this was Babylon 5, Sheridan would do it!

I approve of your television watching habits.

Spoilers for Babylon 5

Just as I approve of what Sheridan does to Clarke's martial-law abusing government. Fuck Clarke and the PPG-sized hole in his head. It's what he gets for murdering civil rights and ordering the bombing of civilian targets.

Anyway, I've no idea why people are bringing up gun laws now. I've had a history of being fairly pro gun control, but the law in most US States & Territories explicitly prohibits the sale, distribution, or ownership of firearms to the mentally unstable or those with criminal records. The shooter in this case had a criminal record involving drugs that affected his mental state, and his firearm was distributed to him by his father--which was already against the law. Humorously, had gun control provisions already in place been followed, this entire event would have been avoided. Unfortunately, they weren't.

There are so many examples of why the US needs gun control.

This is, actually, not one of them.

"He used a gun!" If he used a knife, would you ask for sweeping knife control laws? No more kitchen knives, no more switch blades? Why not? Ask yourself this question. "They're not ranged!" They're concealable, they're legal, and anybody--including those with criminal records and the mentally insane--can buy them for a few bucks. Would you expect the same kinds of controls for bows and arrows, or crossbows? Throwing knives?

Do you get it yet? Violent people do violent things. Take away their tools and you make it only marginally harder for them. Mass murderers existed before widely accessible firearms. Jack the Ripper murdered five prostitutes and got away with it unscathed and he did it with a knife.

Again. Just so we're all clear: I'm for gun control. Federally regulated, legislated, judicially enforced, sweeping gun control, tracking, and registration. I think of it far more as a responsibility than a right: You want one? Prove you can handle one. It's an instant death stick that can murder people 200 yards out without even giving them a chance to blink--these should probably be regulated. I am not, however, going to ever advocate for the unilateral banning of firearms, nor am I going to pretend that deleting guns removes crime. Rape gangs still exist in Great Britain despite sweeping gun regulations. Homicide and burglary are still a thing in Australia, gun control didn't delete those either.

Gun Control is a tool. It's a safety measure, a bandage--you don't use it for wounds requiring surgical operations. Gun control the US all you like, the majority of murders are conducted with unregistered, unlicensed firearms, that were circulated in the black market to black gangs who use it primarily to murder each other, and drug gangs who use them to pop anyone they don't like. (Namely cops, competitors, and clients who don't pay up.) As a double whammy, most gun control advocates target assault weapons, when the vast majority of crimes are committed with hand guns--concealable guns you can hide in a pair of baggy jeans.

The bigger, bleeding wound that is driving violence--including gun violence--is racism and poverty. The US has bigger problems than guns. Guns are the tool. Remove them, and you're treating the symptom, not the cause.

Again, one more time, just so it's clear: I'm absolutely for gun control, this case is just completely absurd to use as fuel for it. It's far more a case for domestic terrorism and racism than it is gun control, because the gun control measures that were already in place to stop this kind of crime were not followed.

 

[Goldmarble]

The bigger, bleeding wound that is driving violence--including gun violence--is racism and poverty. The US has bigger problems than guns. Guns are the tool. Remove them, and you're treating the symptom, not the cause.

All of this.

 

[Hecatoncheires]

Incidents like this will become more common as we chug along through the 21st century.

Please, tell us more of this coming race war you seem rather hyped about.

 

[Rare]

Please, tell us more of this coming race war you seem rather hyped about.

I kinda want to her what ASTA has to say. It would be interesting to read.