So this happened fairly recently, what are your thoughts?
I've seen a lot of people who find this upsetting, and, while it's not surprising, it still saddens me to see so many people holding steadfast to their bigoted beliefs. This does give me some hope, however, that such beliefs will eventually fade away over time.
As a Christian myself, I'm very happy about this. I was always hoping that the whole "being gay is a sin" thing would fade away over time, much like how interracial marriage was once considered sinful, and now that just seems ridiculous to look back on. :P
Anyway, I've always liked Pope Francis. I really like the direction he's taking things in.
How I say this might come out wrong, but it's not as fucked up as it sounds.
They shouldn't apologize. Why? Because if they were true Christians, they wouldn't be judgmental assholes in the first place. If someone needs to apologize for being a dick to someone just because they love someone of the same sex, they don't have the right to call themselves a Christian. Everyone should be accepted, not because of who they love and want to spend their lives with, but for who they are as a person. People who follow the bible shouldn't have to be told to apologize for being assholes, because if they were truly following the 'word of God' they wouldn't have anything to apologize for.
To me, he's not talking to the true Christians, but the idiots who are out there pretending to be Christians just so they have a valid reason to hate.
IMO, 'Christians' don't need to apologise for shit. You take responsibility for what you do, not for what someone who associates with the same label does. You don't get to choose who identifies as Christian and who does not, nor can you control others their actions. I mean I understand the whole community as identity thing comes from, but I still think this is kind of fucking stupid.
Don't get me wrong, the pope apologising on behalf of an institution is nice and all and I understand why it's happening like this and why it's probably fairly effective, but wouldn't it be better if we would all grow up, stop seeing people as collectives and have individual jackasses apologise to the individual people they've wronged?
I mean don't answer that, but fuck you gotta wonder sometimes.
I think the church should apologize. I am a Christian. I have a minor in Biblical Studies.
Why do I think this?
The church is divided into many different denominations that have no figurehead over ALL. The catholic church has the Pope. Each denomination has it's own hierarchy. Now, does that lack of hierarchy for Christianity mean that the "church" is not unified and has no control over individual teachings? Effectively, yes. This is why Church's the preach things opposite of what a true christian believes, exist. Church such as the Westboro Baptist Church.
Without a governing body over all the denominations, their is no authority to decided the stances that churches should take on topics. It is all up to interpretations. Should their be a main governing body for all denominations? I don't know. That is for your own opinions.
With that being said, the treatment of homosexuals that make the most news coming from the Christian camp, are negative. Such as the WestBoro Baptist Church. The lady who worked for the local government and wouldn't issue marriage licenses to homosexuals. The list goes on and on.
Is homosexuality a sin? Yes. Quite simply it is.
However, Matthew 12:31-32 says, "Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven people, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come."
It is not an unforgivable sin. Every Christian sins every day. Whether they know it or not. As a christian, we are no better and no worse than any homosexual. We are all equal.
"Love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law." - Romans 13:10
"The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'There is no commandment greater than these." - Mark 12:31
"Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. 8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away." - 1 Corinthians 13:4-8
"Above all, love each other deeply, because love covers over a multitude of sins." - 1 Peter 4:8
"Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God." - 1 John 4:7
" And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love." - 1 Corinthians 13:13
Jesus is the teacher of everyone who claims to be a Christian. That is the meaning of Discipleship, a fundamental Christian belief. Jesus only preached love. Here are a few examples of how Jesus responded to Sinners. As Christians, our goal is to be a close to Jesus as possible. To be as righteous and as heavenly as we can possibly be. We should treat everyone as Jesus did, as he is the ultimate example of Christianity.
John 4
7 When a Samaritan woman came to draw water, Jesus said to her, "Will you give me a drink?" 8 (His disciples had gone into the town to buy food.)
9 The Samaritan woman said to him, "You are a Jew and I am a Samaritan woman. How can you ask me for a drink?" (For Jews do not associate with Samaritans.[a])
10 Jesus answered her, "If you knew the gift of God and who it is that asks you for a drink, you would have asked him and he would have given you living water."
11 "Sir," the woman said, "you have nothing to draw with and the well is deep. Where can you get this living water? 12 Are you greater than our father Jacob, who gave us the well and drank from it himself, as did also his sons and his livestock?"
13 Jesus answered, "Everyone who drinks this water will be thirsty again, 14 but whoever drinks the water I give them will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give them will become in them a spring of water welling up to eternal life."
15 The woman said to him, "Sir, give me this water so that I won't get thirsty and have to keep coming here to draw water."
16 He told her, "Go, call your husband and come back."
17 "I have no husband," she replied.
Jesus said to her, "You are right when you say you have no husband. 18 The fact is, you have had five husbands, and the man you now have is not your husband. What you have just said is quite true."
19 "Sir," the woman said, "I can see that you are a prophet. 20 Our ancestors worshiped on this mountain, but you Jews claim that the place where we must worship is in Jerusalem."
21 "Woman," Jesus replied, "believe me, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. 22 You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23 Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth."
25 The woman said, "I know that Messiah" (called Christ) "is coming. When he comes, he will explain everything to us."
26 Then Jesus declared, "I, the one speaking to you—I am he."
John 8
Jesus returned to the Mount of Olives, 2 but early the next morning he was back again at the Temple. A crowd soon gathered, and he sat down and taught them. 3 As he was speaking, the teachers of religious law and the Pharisees brought a woman who had been caught in the act of adultery. They put her in front of the crowd.
4 "Teacher," they said to Jesus, "this woman was caught in the act of adultery. 5 The law of Moses says to stone her. What do you say?"
6 They were trying to trap him into saying something they could use against him, but Jesus stooped down and wrote in the dust with his finger. 7 They kept demanding an answer, so he stood up again and said, "All right, but let the one who has never sinned throw the first stone!" 8 Then he stooped down again and wrote in the dust.
9 When the accusers heard this, they slipped away one by one, beginning with the oldest, until only Jesus was left in the middle of the crowd with the woman. 10 Then Jesus stood up again and said to the woman, "Where are your accusers? Didn't even one of them condemn you?"
11 "No, Lord," she said.
And Jesus said, "Neither do I. Go and sin no more."
Luke 23
One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him: "Aren't you the Messiah? Save yourself and us!"
But the other criminal rebuked him. "Don't you fear God," he said, "since you are under the same sentence?
We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong."
Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom."
Jesus answered him, "Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise."
Jesus pointed out sins. However, he never once responded with anything other than Love. He never responded with hate. He never called to take away the rights and privileges of anyone who was a sinner. Why? Because everyone sins.
The Bible shows us how Jesus treated people. That is how Christians should treat people. So yes, if the Christians who condemn, downtrodden, take away rights, and refuse to associate with homosexuals won't apologize for their blatantly non Christian actions, then the true Christians should apologize for them. The true christians should show love like Jesus did. They claim to know God. They may know of God, but they do not know God.
I have been asked before, what is the greatest challenge that faces the Church in the 21st Century? I answered: "Love".
With all the killing and terrible things happening in this world, it is hard to love like a Christian is supposed to.
The church has made it abundantly clear, that homosexuality is a sin. Jesus pointed out others sins. However, afterwards, he showed them nothing but love and acceptance. So now, since the Church has told the world, and made its stance on Homosexuality clear, it is time for the Church to begin to show love and acceptance.
I apologize for this being so long. I tried to put some of it in Spoilers. Just, as a Christian, I am ashamed and embarrassed by the actions of so many of "Christians" in the world today.
I hope this provides good insight into what True christianity is. Not the hate that gets spewed by WBC and is in the media.
IMO, 'Christians' don't need to apologise for shit. You take responsibility for what you do, not for what someone who associates with the same label does. You don't get to choose who identifies as Christian and who does not, nor can you control others their actions. I mean I understand the whole community as identity thing comes from, but I still think this is kind of fucking stupid.
Don't get me wrong, the pope apologising on behalf of an institution is nice and all and I understand why it's happening like this and why it's probably fairly effective, but wouldn't it be better if we would all grow up, stop seeing people as collectives and have individual jackasses apologise to the individual people they've wronged?
I mean don't answer that, but fuck you gotta wonder sometimes.
I here ya, I've never been a fan of group identity. In some ways it can be useful to identify as part of a larger whole, but I think it creates more problems than it does solutions. However, I don't think that the idea of group identity is gonna go away any time soon, it may even be unavoidable. Simply put, it's one of the most fundamental aspects of human nature, for better or for worse.
Hello, I'm Grothnor and today we will be using the Christian Bible's own teachings, along with some historical context, to destroy the belief that what we call 'Homosexuality' is a sin.
Homosexuality as a sin is mentioned four times in the Christian Bible, Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13, 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 and Romans 1:26-28.
Leviticus is part of the Jewish Pentateuch (also known as the Torah), which are the first five books of the Christian Old Testament. These books are primarily used to describe the rules and laws that Jews had to obey, and there are far more than the Ten Commandments. The Pentateuch also includes 613 additional commandments that the Jews follow. The Jews also follow an a third set of laws which wasn't written down (though was once the Romans destroyed the Temple in Jerusalem and underwent a diaspora).
The early Christian Church distanced itself from following all these extra commandments: (the 613 and the Oral Tradition) due to disagreements concerning circumcision. Pretty much, some Jewish Christians said people had to become Jews (and get circumcised) before becoming Christians. The Apostles disagreed and a letter (Galatians) was sent to the offending church to sort out the mess.
Furthermore, one of the central-most beliefs of the Christian Church was that Jesus died for our sins to free us from the damning power of all the laws Judaism has. So anyone who cites Leviticus saying that 'teh gays is evilz' is a cherry-picking hypocrite who doesn't know how to Christian.
Now as for 1 Corinthians and Romans, we have to understand how things were done when these letters were written. Both letters were to congregations in Roman land, and during the Roman Empire, homosexuality was practiced very differently than it is now. By today's standards, homosexuality in the Roman Empire was often pedophilic and sometimes could be considered, if not literally, then symbolically, rape. Homosexuality back then was heavily tinged with a dominant vs submissive theme; it was only socially acceptable to be the dominant, as the submissive was looked down on as lacking manliness.
In short, it was pretty fucked up.
But the thing is, back then homosexuality WAS a sin. It was sex for gratification's sake, outside of wedlock and could never be part of a healthy, loving relationship so long as the dominance and control was so present. Modern homosexual relationships do not have any such universal negativity to them and can be just as loving and caring as any relationship.
In summary, what Paul is saying in 1 Corinthians and Romans ISN'T necessarily that homosexuality is a sin by its nature, simply by how it was practiced. In fact, as a modern homosexual relationship can meet all other criteria of a righteous Christian relationship, I would say that homosexuality is not sinful by its nature.
I would go even further to point out that anyone who claims homosexuals are sinful and proceeds to deny them rights, protest their 'sinful' ways or otherwise go out of their way to belittle them, either in public, private or even in the confines of their minds needs to learn how to LOVE THY NEIGHBOR, BITCH!
As a Christian and a lesbian transwoman myself who's had a gradually increasing respect for Pope Francis for a long time, this makes me really happy. It's a refreshing step forward after Orlando (which terrified me, as I'm pretty much totally open about my gender and live in the south) and I hope that it helps reduce discrimination in areas like the Bible Belt where it's far too common. Things like this give me hope that first world society is changing for the better, and are very welcome when people like Trump exist working hard to undo all the good that's been good.
Relieved because Christianity as an institution should be apologising for what they do, an institution that the Pope is in charge of so it makes perfect sense for him to apologise on behalf of it.
To request every Christian does though? That's the part that annoys me, because not all Christians are Homophobic. To demand "You should apologise because you're a Christian" is to fall into group mentality which does nothing but devalue people into being a set of beliefs rather than complex individual with their own stances and reasoning's for them.
That being said, there were a few argument's I've seen stated here that I also have to disagree with:
1. They shouldn't apologise because no True Christian is Homophobic.
I'm sorry, but you're cherry picking your religion and then claiming the only 'true' Christians fall under your cherry picked standards. The Bible might say some stuff about being kind to your neighbour sure, but it also says stuff about having your daughter marry their rapists, beating slaves, being killed for working on Sunday etc. So really, a "True Christian" would be doing all these barbaric acts.
2. All these Bible Verses are homophobic and therefore Christians should apologise.
Also no. Like point #1 just highlighted, a lot of Christians cherry pick their beliefs. So although yes the Religion as written is vile, a lot of Christians have the common decency not to follow those parts, and shouldn't be forced to apologise for a hateful behaviour that they actively avoid and/or condone.
3. This will help reduce discrimination
Actually, it's doing the opposite. You've now pressured over a billion people to be sorry for something a lot of them having nothing to do with. Like what if I reworded this to "Atheists should apologise to Gays", "Straight people should apologise to Gays", "Men should apologise to Gays". Do you see the problem with this now?
... Wait. Did I, an Atheist strongly against Religion just defend Christians against other Christians?
Not every christian should feel they need to apologize for the actions of others, just as a muslim shouldn't have to go out and apologize for ISIS attacks. I feel however, that this is more a call for introspection. And a call for solidarity stance against homophobia. As a atheist and a bisexual man, I can't tell you how happy it makes me to see one of the world most prominent religius figures say this.
@Gwazi Magnum Isn't entirely wrong in that a lot of you are cherry picking and the notion of "True Christian" is problematic. I would suggest looking up "One True scotsman". BUt that isn't a bad thing. You are showing that you consider love and acceptence is your creed. I never once believed someone less because of their adherence to a scripture or a text, but only over what actions they take in "Its name".
Also. It should be mentioned that gestures like this means a great lot to many of use that has faced discrimination. Nothing is gonna take back the week I spent in a hostpital at he hand of bigots. But whenever I see people take a stance or even doing something so simple as saying "I am sorry for what people have done to you", it helps. YOu know.
Relieved because Christianity as an institution should be apologising for what they do, an institution that the Pope is in charge of so it makes perfect sense for him to apologise on behalf of it.
To request every Christian does though? That's the part that annoys me, because not all Christians are Homophobic.
Not everything has to be a war you know. Nobody has to do anything anyone else says they have to do. We can all chill our tits and just take this as a kind sentiment from an organization that was ardently anti-gay for a long, long time. And, since we're all apparently pulling the identity card, I'm an atheist. It's all silly fables to me, but there are over a billion Catholics who look up to the Pope. The Pope just told them to be nice to gay people.
Take it for what it is: A light in the dark. Don't get picky just because the light is in a colour you dislike. We could all use a light right now, plain and simple.
If you're a Christian and you've never been unkind to gay people for being gay, good for you, this message obviously doesn't apply to you. You're already being a good person.
If you're a Christian and you're a douche to gay people, this message clearly applies to you. Apologies can go a long way to mending wounds caused by hatred. The Pope is asking you to be kind.
If you're not a Christian and you take issue with the message because it's directed at a whole group of people, shove it. Stop being offended for other people. Not your place. Christians will speak their own minds. Take it for what it is: The Pope asking his follows to be kind to gay people. Sorry the message ain't perfectly formatted in a dry, sterile way you like. Them's people in a nutshell.
Y'all gettin' crochedy over this. Sheesh. I echo this sentiment.
Not every christian should feel they need to apologize for the actions of others, just as a muslim shouldn't have to go out and apologize for ISIS attacks. I feel however, that this is more a call for introspection. And a call for solidarity stance against homophobia. As a atheist and a bisexual man, I can't tell you how happy it makes me to see one of the world most prominent religius figures say this.
The true Christian argument is basically "I don't associate with these people." You could argue with the reasoning behind it, but you'd get into a discussion that's likely to be as fruitful as 'science vs. religion.' Gotta read between the words a bit.
Don't get me wrong, the pope apologising on behalf of an institution is nice and all and I understand why it's happening like this and why it's probably fairly effective, but wouldn't it be better if we would all grow up, stop seeing people as collectives and have individual jackasses apologise to the individual people they've wronged?
I mean don't answer that, but fuck you gotta wonder sometimes.
Relieved because Christianity as an institution should be apologising for what they do, an institution that the Pope is in charge of so it makes perfect sense for him to apologise on behalf of it.
The true Christian argument is basically "I don't associate with these people." You could argue with the reasoning behind it, but you'd get into a discussion that's likely to be as fruitful as 'science vs. religion.' Gotta read between the words a bit.
I'm not 100% sure. There's a difference between saying they as an individual don't associate with them and then doubting that the other person has faith.
That being said, I only made that a footnote to get the bigger point across of generalising people into big groups is bad. I'm not that interested in engaging in a big debate over the top of "True (Religion)" cause usually if the person is arguing it to begin with they're doing it from a point of emotion/bias, not by actually looking into the Religion (Not always, but enough it's a safe bet to avoid said debate).
Fantasy is my #1; I will give almost anything a chance if it has strong fantasy elements. Post apocalyptic, superhero, alternate history, science fantasy, some supernatural, romance, and a few fandoms (especially Game of Thrones) are also likely to catch my eye.
Sure, sounds like a fine idea to me. The first step to reducing harmful discrimination (side note: totally eliminating such discrimination is nigh impossible since it's basically hardwired into the way our brains work) is to make people understand it's a bad thing, and this is one way to do it. Even if individual Christian people find no reason to apologize to gay people, and I do agree that not all of them need to and that this kind of generalization is silly, this is a good reminder to all of them that being a shit to someone isn't cool even if they're a sinner by your judgment.
Hm, I think people might be over-thinking this and taking it as personal attacks. I see it as more of a reminder in a broad scope to not be a dick to your fellows. It's also a good reminder to look back on history and understand that many mistakes have been made by the Church and fellow Christians and that you, as an individual, can learn from them. Love all, forgive all, etc, etc.
As for the stereotypes, it's hurtful all around. Yes there are Christians that don't get the above message. But there are also a great many homophobic, bigoted, jackasses from various other religious or none at all. And As a christian who strives to be like Christ and wants to love people and show kindness (even though I fail often) the implication that my faith means I must be hateful is exceedingly hurtful.
Christ came and died for me, a flawed human being, just like he came a died for everyone else, flawed human beings. Being hateful only undermines that message. And yes, I cringe every time I see someone claiming to follow Christ behaving in that way, and I am sorry those actions cause hurt, but I see just as much hateful and ugly behavior from other groups and other people, so saying any one group is to blame is a flawed argument.
It's a heart problem, not a faith problem.
We are all responsible for our own actions, nothing less and nothing more.
You've been an ass to someone for any reason at all, go apologize.
You're friends with people and love on them, good for you.
If I've done something wrong, offensive, or hurt your feelings tell me and I'll do what I can to correct that.
But I will not apologize for my faith and belief in Christ. Though I do apologize for my failure to be more like him.
While I am a Catholic that accepts papal infallibility, the overall message falls into a No True Scotsman fallacy too quickly.
The pope might have a bit more authority in dictating the actions of all Christians once the schisms are remedied.
Simple way I look at it: the people who would be willing to apologize don't have anything to apologize for, and the people who should apologize for something never will.
