Britain is leaving the European Union

[Brovo]

It's happening. Leave won.

So, here is the arbitrary discussion thread for it. Keep it civil, talk about it here if y'all would like.

I for one have many mixed feelings about this. I was and still am pro-leave, but I have a terrible, unsettling feeling in my gut that the far right of Europe was watching, and will gladly look at this as a rallying cry.

And, if you live in the UK, and y'all voted (leave or stay), why did you vote the way you did? How do you feel about the results?

EDIT

Also, yes, you can still obviously vote in the poll even if you don't live in the UK. It's a hypothetical question about an ideological choice that actually occurred.

 

[The Dovah]

There's also other factors. This time of year tends to be crunch time for Uni students. Now, i'm not speaking for everyone and as a former apprentice, had this occured last year, i wouldn't have been able to focus on EU stuff. Exams would have been my priority along with focusing on the last remaining pieces of coursework. People have reasons for not voting. Some are just lazy. Some don't give a damn. Some are too busy. etc..

And no, before anyone claims, roleplaying is what i do in my down time.Just putting it out there. :)

 

[Pachamac]

I actually have more respect for people not voting whom haven't fully researched or explored the discussion and issues as opposed to just voting for something on the principal of... I don't even know what. Especially considering what the referendum campaigns on both sides consisted of.

For what it's worth, neither Jeremy Hunt or Ian Duncan Smith are competing for the leadership of the Conservative Party @The Dovah. Those who are though... lol. It's like Britain can't wait a year before Game of Thrones comes back on tv, so they've just gotta do what they can do to keep themselves entertained in its stead. Suffice to say though, every single candidate is grim news.

But still, won't disagree that more younger voters do need to go out there and vote. Hell, more people in general should educate themselves on politics and go out and vote. Although unfortunately this can at times be unfeasible. I do contest the idea that young people who didn't vote are bitching about the result though, unless this is something anecdotal towards people Grumpy knows, because I personally haven't seen it either locally or through news reports or anything. Everyone who I know is bitching about this result went out and voted for the opposite option. I won't argue that it's probably happening out there somewhere because it'd be unlikely not to be. But who can say how prominent it is?

(I actually think having the vote on Glastonbury weekend too didn't help tbh)

 

[Gwazi Magnum]

As though old people don't care about the future consequences their vote could have on the country they are likely going to die in and the children they likely gave birth to who will grow up with the result of their decision.

Pretty macabre line of thinking there. Might want to try something else.

I agree, I was just trying to explain what the complaint actually was to begin with.

And as much as I agree with arguing bad ideas, it pays to actually make sure the idea you're arguing against is what you think it is... Otherwise you're wasting your time.
So when I saw people saying "They want a 2nd vote because young people didn't vote" I felt the need to come in and go "That's not what they're saying... What they're saying is still stupid, but a different stupid".

 

[The Dovah]

I know but the thought of the Cunt and the Dick being in power is an ugly affair. *shudders*

Boris quitting is probably good but it would have been amusing to see him being Boris on a larger scale. And guess what the papers are claiming the infighting is? Bloodletting.

Did....


Did England just turn into Westoros? If so, I missed that memo and the papers are claiming it's bloodletting. Erm..... i don't think it's bloodletting unless someone gets stabbed. And yeah, very poor choice of words by the papers and erm....... yeah, the papers are overreacting.

Regarding Scotland, i'll admit, i'm not good at debates as i don't usually have the time or want to spend the time researching due to life of Dov being job focused and debating in my downtime is not something i want to get turned into work. But someone did make a good point. They voted as part of the UK not part of Scotland. We gave them the vote last year or a few years back and i feel it's just Sturgeon wanting to become the first PM/President of Scotland despite a majority of the UK voted to Leave. Scotland agreed to remain in. The Vote wasn't for UK and Scotland. It was for the UK, which Scotland is a part of.

 

[Brovo]

All I'm saying is, people might have reasons for not being able to do it -- especially if they're busy people who don't know what they're doing and don't have the time to research things and figure it out on their own.

You h'wat mate.

People had months to register to vote for this. People were able to register up until 11:59PM the Thursday before the vote. You only had to sit down for one day and read articles/watch debates a couple weeks before the vote. Registration is so easy, an illiterate man could do it at this point. The blind who can only read brail can do it. Cripples can do it. The man who works 40 hours a week can do it. The old people who probably have more physical impediments and just as many responsibilities as the young did it.

One google search for "how do I vote in the UK referendum" would have illuminated people on how to vote. It illuminated me. Major newspapers, agencies, and websites constantly and repeatedly told people throughout the referendum how to register, and where to get further information. The government repeatedly told people how to register to vote. There are phone numbers you can still call anytime to be guided on how to register to vote.

It is easier than it has ever been to register to vote. It is easier than it has ever been to rapidly learn the talking points and facts of various political parties and movements. It is easier than it ever has been before to engage democratically. Somehow, people found time to exercise their democratic rights back before smart phones, back before the Internet, back before every household had television. And, to add salt to the wound, a higher percentage of them voted than do now--back when they worked longer hours, had less reliable transportation, and less ability to learn about the fact that a vote was even happening.

As for the added stress of learning political positions and attempting to vote to your best interests? Welcome to life. Get stronger, because it doesn't get easier as an adult. It only gets harder as your body starts failing you and society constantly changes around you.

If anything, the lowering voter turnout in general is a sign of just how sickeningly self-absorbed society is becoming. Self-image is more important than actually doing something, and now people are making up a million excuses for why they couldn't exercise a basic right. Feelings are more reals than the fundamental responsibility of being an informed member of the electorate.

If you're seriously too busy to vote (lolwhat), either you live in an Indian Sweatshop, or you simply don't care enough to register to vote and learn about the issues. If it's the latter, you didn't lose your right to complain--you'll have that so long as free speech reigns supreme. You did, however, lose any credibility to your complaining, because you either refused or were incapable of taking on the responsibility of basic adulthood in a democracy.

tl;dr: Welcome to life. It came and went without you. Move on, learn, and register to vote next time. Stop making excuses and look to the future--look at what you can do now and in the near future.

 

[Pachamac]

I know but the thought of the Cunt and the Dick being in power is an ugly affair. *shudders*

Did England just turn into Westoros? If so, I missed that memo and the papers are claiming it's bloodletting. Erm..... i don't think it's bloodletting unless someone gets stabbed. And yeah, very poor choice of words by the papers and erm....... yeah, the papers are overreacting.

The bloodletting comments are a metaphorical one, because Boris Johnson got metaphorically stabbed in the back by his fellow Leave Campaigner Michael Gove whom was originally supporting Boris to become the next PM before turning around literally on the day of the Tory Leadership contest nominations and denouncing him as ill equipped to be a Prime Minister and nominate himself instead.

This ride has more twists and turns then any other rollercoaster I've seen before.

However I do believe there's more to Bojo not running for PM then just the Gove thing, and that's that he genuinely didn't plan on winning the referendum and wanting the responsibility and implications it brings with it. In my opinion though that's a load of shit. As the lead Leave Campaigner he brought the country to where it is. The dick should at least have the stones to go full hog with it.

I dislike Cameron and the Conservative Party as much as the next guy, however I really think he was the best out of everyone it could have possibly been. The conservative nominees for the leadership really are bad. Be careful of what you wish for and all that.

 

[Hecatoncheires]

Teresa May's got some potential. She's a veteran politician, she's played a clever game with her position on Brexit, and she's a solid candidate for heading up exit negotiations with the EU.

Her track record on civil liberties and online privacy, though...

...yeah. The less I say about that the better.

 

[The Dovah]

And as someone that is unemployed, "Months to vote" means nothing. To me, it is extra stuff to focus on. Stuff i can do without focusing my time on and potentially causing stress. Jobs are the most important thing in my life. I didn't have the time to dedicate and I'm already under enough pressure as it is. I would have wanted to listen to everything. Watch the debates, research and i simply don't have the time. To say that I, as a british citizen have no right to complain is wrong imo. If i didn't look for jobs because I dedicated time to the EU, the job centre would have sanctioned me and I would be fucked.

People can be busy and people like having downtime. I like my downtime. I rather not spend hours every day and weeks in total researching the EU, listening to the arguments and bullshit from both sides then potentially beat myself up afterwards over the vote. I have enough on my plate as it is. Students are most likely the busiest group around this time of year due to exams. To brush everyone with the same "They're not busy busy" is just wrong.

 

[Gwazi Magnum]

@Brovo @Kagayours

I think there's been some miss-communication.

To attempt to clarify, Kaga explained to me the American voting system before and it is from what I gathered far more complex than what the UK has going for it. Kaga can try to explain the specifics, but generally it had to do with pre-registration months ahead of time, so far ahead that most of the would be 18 year old voters are still mid-17 and not even thinking about it yet, so by the time they're 18 and start looking the deadline has closed. Combined with stuff with piss poor hours for being able to get to voting stations through transit... It can be rather easy for someone to fall through the cracks.

UK's on the other hand that effected Brexit? Very different scenario from what I gathered. Hell, I saw a video from NerdCubed, a gaming channel advertising a link to vote registration mere days before the vote took place. I didn't actually go through the process myself (obviously), but my general impression was that it was really as as simple as Login, give some info, count as a voter, vote online. Far more convenient and easy to get into than what America was using.

And then to throw this into Canada's system cause I both know that from personal experience and it's something me and Brovo share. That is also far easier than the system Kaga's going to be getting her assumptions from. For me anyways it was literally as easy as go to a school a 5 minute walk away, show ID (a single piece of ID, not the 4-5 ID shit that Social Insurance has you do) and vote.

TL;DR America's voting system is way more messy and disorganised than UK's and Canada's voting system. And a lot of the stuff that can cause people not to be able to vote on time just comes from either legal complications where the gates closed long before you're even thinking about the vote, or just poor timetables in general that make people working certain hours or transit reliant forced to choose between voting or missing work.

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@Voting or Not Voting cause of not being able to get informed

In regards to this topic? I'd have to say I can definitely respect people choosing not to vote if they don't actually understand the topic. One of Democracy's main flaws is people voting just cause they can and not because they actually understand the topic in any way. So people being responsible with their vote is frankly speaking, a sigh of relief.

And I'm not comfortable laying in on the "Too busy to get informed" deal, because even during my college days I never actually felt I was THAT occupied. I always had a decent amount of free time to pursue hobbies or to get informed on stuff. That being said though, said college was ECE, a rather easy program compared to others out there. And on top of which I never have been in the situation being stuck in poverty and desperately trying to find a job just to be able to eat.

So... This is one of the few cases I'm going to mention Privilege. But I feel like I've been privileged enough by a rather relaxed life that I don't really have the right to yell at people for not 'making time' for stuff like this. Because compared to a lot of people the amount of time consuming pressures I have on my plate has never been that high.

 

[Brovo]

People can be busy and people like having downtime. I like my downtime.

Voting is a fundamental human right and the only responsibility that the commoner is entrusted with where it concerns the political machine other than paying taxes. You aren't even usually required to do it every year. Giving it up ensures that your voice will never be heard by the people who rule over you. If enough people give up on it, then there is literally no reason for the government to remain democratic.

You will never get a perfect choice--you're voting between imperfect candidates and imperfect ideologies represented by imperfect political parties. There's a lot of red tape and bureaucratic crap to go with it. Corruption still happens. Gerrymandering still happens. Rich people still gain influence via lobbying.

However, it is still the best system that has been created to ensure a government is responsible toward and reflective of the will of the people. The commoner. The people who have only one advantage over the wealthy--sheer numbers.

So understand when I say that giving up your one and only fundamental expression of your will toward the people who rule over you for downtime is a downright alien concept to me. My life was too harsh for me to maintain a perception of the world like that--downtime is always secondary to survival and my rights, and my ability to express both of these things to the people who rule over me.

 

[Pachamac]

Teresa May's got some potential. She's a veteran politician, she's played a clever game with her position on Brexit, and she's a solid candidate for heading up exit negotiations with the EU.

Her track record on civil liberties and online privacy, though...

...yeah. The less I say about that the better.

Agreed. The civil liberties and online privacy stuff though... hooboy.

I mean, I know we're not guaranteed another general election, but it'd also be nice if the Labour Party could kindly sort their shit out right now so we could at least have an opposition.

 

[The Dovah]

Voting is a fundamental human right and the only responsibility that the commoner is entrusted with where it concerns the political machine other than paying taxes. You aren't even usually required to do it every year. Giving it up ensures that your voice will never be heard by the people who rule over you. If enough people give up on it, then there is literally no reason for the government to remain democratic.

You will never get a perfect choice--you're voting between imperfect candidates and imperfect ideologies represented by imperfect political parties. There's a lot of red tape and bureaucratic crap to go with it. Corruption still happens. Gerrymandering still happens. Rich people still gain influence via lobbying.

However, it is still the best system that has been created to ensure a government is responsible toward and reflective of the will of the people. The commoner. The people who have only one advantage over the wealthy--sheer numbers.

So understand when I say that giving up your one and only fundamental expression of your will toward the people who rule over you for downtime is a downright alien concept to me. My life was too harsh for me to maintain a perception of the world like that--downtime is always secondary to survival and my rights, and my ability to express both of these things to the people who rule over me.

I am not giving up my voice. I just have enough on my plate as it is and I can seldom beat myself up for past mistakes. Even now, i can think of mistakes from a year ago that make me go "Oh god, how the fuck did i cock that up?" and i know i would go into overdrive if i researched the EU then ended up changing my mind and beating myself up for doing so. My life revolves around trying to get a job. My downtime is a way of coping with a shitty situation. I did an apprenticeship. Ended up being unemployed again. If i gave it up to research the EU, chances are i would get stressed out, grumpy(well, more grumpy then usual) and bitter(well, more bitter then usual). Downtime allows me to cope with the fact that life is fucked for me, it's a damn struggle to get an interview and the field i've chosen seems to be a massive catch 22 where you need a job to get a job. Combine that with worrying about voting, when to vote, will i have the cash to spare to get to the nearest polling station etc... could cause issues for me thus me not doing so.

 

[Kagayours]

@Brovo @Kagayours

I think there's been some miss-communication.

To attempt to clarify, Kaga explained to me the American voting system before and it is from what I gathered far more complex than what the UK has going for it. Kaga can try to explain the specifics, but generally it had to do with pre-registration months ahead of time, so far ahead that most of the would be 18 year old voters are still mid-17 and not even thinking about it yet, so by the time they're 18 and start looking the deadline has closed. Combined with stuff with piss poor hours for being able to get to voting stations through transit... It can be rather easy for someone to fall through the cracks.

UK's on the other hand that effected Brexit? Very different scenario from what I gathered. Hell, I saw a video from NerdCubed, a gaming channel advertising a link to vote registration mere days before the vote took place. I didn't actually go through the process myself (obviously), but my general impression was that it was really as as simple as Login, give some info, count as a voter, vote online. Far more convenient and easy to get into than what America was using.

And then to throw this into Canada's system cause I both know that from personal experience and it's something me and Brovo share. That is also far easier than the system Kaga's going to be getting her assumptions from. For me anyways it was literally as easy as go to a school a 5 minute walk away, show ID (a single piece of ID, not the 4-5 ID shit that Social Insurance has you do) and vote.

TL;DR America's voting system is way more messy and disorganised than UK's and Canada's voting system. And a lot of the stuff that can cause people not to be able to vote on time just comes from either legal complications where the gates closed long before you're even thinking about the vote, or just poor timetables in general that make people working certain hours or transit reliant forced to choose between voting or missing work.

I did emphasize that I don't actually know anything about how easy or difficult it would've been to register to vote for Brexit. But my post wasn't really meant to be a critique of the US voting system (even though there are plenty of things to critique...). My point was moreso that I don't like the rhetoric of "people shouldn't complain because they were too lazy to vote", because I feel there are a lot of circumstances that could prevent someone from voting. Basically, I don't know everyone's story, and I'm not going to act like I do, which is why I don't like the idea that anyone who didn't vote should just be brushed aside as "too lazy".

I used the US system (or, more specifically, the NY state system) because A) that's what I'm familiar with, and B) I spent months watching so many of my friends try to register to vote, but there were too many obstacles in their way for it to be a reality. And then, when the election finally happened, and they expressed their disappointment with the outcome, people still had the gall to tell them "well then you should've voted you lazy asses", as if they didn't try.

So, yeah, hearing people say "you're just a lazy ass if you didn't vote" is kind of something that bothers me. Hence why I said something about it. BUT, I don't want to debate this any further. Sorry for butting in.

 

[Gwazi Magnum]

I used the US system (or, more specifically, the NY state system) because A) that's what I'm familiar with, and B) I spent months watching so many of my friends try to register to vote, but there were too many obstacles in their way for it to be a reality.

I figured that's what you were doing. But the responses from others seemed to be missing that bit (from what I could tell), so I figured I should try to clarify.

I feel there are a lot of circumstances that could prevent someone from voting. Basically, I don't know everyone's story, and I'm not going to act like I do, which is why I don't like the idea that anyone who didn't vote should just be brushed aside as "too lazy".

And agreed.

 

[The Dovah]

There was a protest in London against brexit today.

Why do i get the feeling that they will keep demanding a second vote and if that comes up as Leave again, they will demand it again and again? Granted, i've paid little to no attention to the aftermath beyond Patronising git Cameron resigned and Boris leaving but it's not the end of days for us brits. Scotland won't be allowed to join the Eu as long as they remain a part of the UK and well, i don't think we'll give them a vote until we've sorted ourselves out to avoid complicating stuff for us. We have a lot of trade stuff to negotiate, fishing to overhaul(seriously, dead fish in the sea is just wasteful and it is hard for fishermen to keep to it due to the nature of fishing.) and the yearly jokes aimed at the french.

I may have made up the jokes bit but we're going to be busy for a few years and with luck, several damaged sectors(manufacturing, erm.... ok, i know little about the sectors) will be invested in heavily. Exports should go up as a result and with any luck, the government will give the train system a massive slap around the head, a kick up it's arse and go "You were only meant to run the bloody system, not milk it!" But that's a bit off topic.


And if we go back on Brexit, it kinda damages our reputation as a country. Granted, we like to joke that we are the most racist country in the world because we naturally hate everyone that isn't british and hate everyone that isn't english and hate the english. :P

It would be nice to hear some positive stuff in the news at some point instead "Woe is UK. The end of days are on us. We're doomed. Dooooomed Dooooooooooooomed!"

 

[Gwazi Magnum]

Why do i get the feeling that they will keep demanding a second vote and if that comes up as Leave again, they will demand it again and again?

Because they most likely will. Demanding a second vote on something the public already decided on is insanely undemocratic, they're only reason for pushing for it is that they're not getting their way.

(Granted, I supported Remain. But in my mind the vote's over, it's better for the UK to carry through on a mistake than it is to simply give a middle finger to democracy).

It would be nice to hear some positive stuff in the news at some point instead "Woe is UK. The end of days are on us. We're doomed. Dooooomed Dooooooooooooomed!"

How about this? :3

 

[The Dovah]

Yep and it comes off as a massive hissy fit because they can't get their way.

Now, there is a legal firm trying to force the issue and prevent it. Lawyers Demand Commons Vote On Brexit

*facepalm*

People are idiots sometimes.

 

[Hellis]

Via Reddit:

"Nigel, we won!"
"We won? How'd that happen Boris?"
"No idea."
"Well. What are we to do now?"
"Indeed old chap, what now?"
"..."
"..."
"Bail?"
"Fuck yes"

 

[Hecatoncheires]

Teresa May's kinda got the leadership competition in the bag, all thanks to this.

 

[Hellis]

Pretty sure Labour has watched two much GoT. I am expecting a red wedding any day now