Britain is leaving the European Union

[Brovo]

It's happening. Leave won.

So, here is the arbitrary discussion thread for it. Keep it civil, talk about it here if y'all would like.

I for one have many mixed feelings about this. I was and still am pro-leave, but I have a terrible, unsettling feeling in my gut that the far right of Europe was watching, and will gladly look at this as a rallying cry.

And, if you live in the UK, and y'all voted (leave or stay), why did you vote the way you did? How do you feel about the results?

EDIT

Also, yes, you can still obviously vote in the poll even if you don't live in the UK. It's a hypothetical question about an ideological choice that actually occurred.

 

[The Dovah]

Teresa May kinda was shit at her job when she was in charge of the border agency. If i recall correctly, there was a scandal years ago about a huge cock up. Apparently, Germany needs us to agree to a free movement trade deal. I doubt the source as well, for some reason, i kinda like reading the daily rags just to see what crap they produce. It's just odd.

I do think that Sturgoen is having a hissy fit and seems to care more about making her place in history then accepting the UK's result. I mean, Scotland did vote to remain in the UK and therefore, kinda has to accept our decisions. Sure, Scotland voted to REMAIN but the rest of it voted LEAVE. Can't have it both ways and yet, she seems to be going behind the UK's back to try to get Scotland to remain in the EU. Apparently, the EU told her it will never happen. Oh and apparently, Argentina is starting to bitch about the Falklands again. Can't recall if it was a news site i read it on or not but they claimed that the Falklanders aren't people.

Anyway, as i've said, we'll survive. We need time to adjust and we're not likely to collapse overnight. I mean, we survived a bunch of utter bankers crashing the country a few years back. Sure we can survive being by ourselves. And we're not going to shun the EU.

Racists will be racist. BF, EDL, they would have kicked off big time if we remained and done more marchs, more bullshit about "Defending England from....." I flat out refuse to finish what they often claim to be. They'll be sorted out but sadly, i can see them getting violent if they go unchecked. Hell, the first protest they did in my town, it turned very violent.

 

[Pachamac]

I do think that Sturgoen is having a hissy fit and seems to care more about making her place in history then accepting the UK's result. I mean, Scotland did vote to remain in the UK and therefore, kinda has to accept our decisions. Sure, Scotland voted to REMAIN but the rest of it voted LEAVE. Can't have it both ways and yet, she seems to be going behind the UK's back to try to get Scotland to remain in the EU. Apparently, the EU told her it will never happen.

I can't tell if this is serious, but the utter hypocrisy in this is insane. Why shouldn't Scotland seek independance from the UK when the majority of its citizens want to remain in Europe? Bear in mind that a good reason why Scotland voted to remain in the UK in their last referendum was on the basis that we would be in Europe.

 

[The Dovah]

That's their mistake. Granted, I am up for giving them another election to determine if they want to remain in the UK or not but they knew what they were doing when they voted to remain in. But to wait until now to start it? They should have said "If the rest of the UK wants out, we wish to remain in the EU or out of the UK." The EU may have listened then. Now? Too late.

 

[Pachamac]

The Scottish public knew that the UK would vote to leave the European Union when they had their independance reference? Eh? Huh? What?

 

[The Dovah]

No. They knew that if they remained, they would continued to be ruled by the UK and accept the decisions made.

 

[Pachamac]

They chose to remain in the Scottish independance ref because it was in their interests to do so and because they wanted to remain a part of Europe. Leaving the UK would have conversely meant leaving Europe as well and having to go through the laborious process of rejoining again, something which this referendum has helped acutely demonstrate is something they don't want. But now that England and Wales have voted to leave... and their own country's population has shown greater support to remain, why shouldn't they want to have another referendum in light of that? o.O Why should they have to follow the whims and demands of a union whose policies are not in their interest? I mean, England and Wales clearly didn't want to with Europe so are backing out. It makes no sense that Scotland shouldn't be allowed to do the same.

Also, more fun news for Brexit stuff

The European Union's top trade official says the UK cannot begin negotiating terms for doing business with the bloc until after it has left.

"First you exit then you negotiate," Cecilia Malmstrom told BBC Newsnight.

After Brexit, the UK would become a "third country" in EU terms, she said - meaning trade would be carried out based on World Trade Organisation rules until a new deal was complete.

A recent trade deal with Canada took seven years to negotiate.

The Canadian agreement will also require ratification by all EU countries, adding another one to two years before it takes effect.

Ms Malmstrom, the EU Trade Commissioner, underlined that detailed talks to shape the UK's new trading relationship with the EU should not start until after the process of leaving politically, under an Article 50 process lasting up to two years.

"There are actually two negotiations. First you exit, and then you negotiate the new relationship, whatever that is," she said.

"The referendum - which of course we take note of and respect - has no legal effect. First there has to be notification, which the next prime minister will do, I hope swiftly. And then that process can start."

There is concern in the City that having to do business for years under WTO rules could be disastrous for the UK's service industries.

Asked whether sticking to such a process wouldn't harm the economies of all EU members, Ms Malmstrom replied: "Yes, but the vote was very clear."

She said she was "saddened" that the UK - which has traditionally defended the principle of free trade - is leaving the EU.

Fearsome challenge

Under EU law, the bloc cannot negotiate a separate trade deal with one of its own members, hence the commissioner's insistence that the UK must first leave.
It is also against EU law for a member to negotiate its own trade deals with outsiders, which means the UK cannot start doing this until after it has left the EU.

Taken at face value, these rules mean the UK cannot conduct its own trade talks for up to two years - a fearsome challenge to any prime minister trying to deliver Brexit.

EU officials say the UK's options will soon refine themselves into a Norway-style package that keeps Britain within the single market - subject to EU rules and regulations - or a bespoke "third country" deal on the pattern of Canada's.

They agree that because British businesses are already compliant with EU rules and regulations, choosing to remain within the single market would be "a little quicker", than negotiating a deal like Canada's.

But even a Norway-style single market access deal, they caution, could take years to negotiate, leaving the UK trading on WTO terms in the meantime.

 

[Gwazi Magnum]

I do think that Sturgoen is having a hissy fit and seems to care more about making her place in history then accepting the UK's result. I mean, Scotland did vote to remain in the UK and therefore, kinda has to accept our decisions. Sure, Scotland voted to REMAIN but the rest of it voted LEAVE. Can't have it both ways and yet

I have to agree that you can't have it both ways.

UK shouldn't be able to claim their right in leaving a partnership like the EU and then turn around and be appalled when Scotland tries the same thing. Like seriously, Scotland's desire to leave the UK is almost identical to Brexit. Save for that this time they have the additional reason of they're leaving a partnership either way, for Scotland it's just a matter of which matters more, England or (almost) the rest of Europe?

 

[Hellis]

That's their mistake. Granted, I am up for giving them another election to determine if they want to remain in the UK or not but they knew what they were doing when they voted to remain in. But to wait until now to start it? They should have said "If the rest of the UK wants out, we wish to remain in the EU or out of the UK." The EU may have listened then. Now? Too late.

But that is what they said. They said before brexit "If UK leaves, we leave the UK." The biggest selling point for staying in the UK was The EU. YOu don't get to say "They have to accept what we chose." They didn't chose it. They chose to remain. And now you have the the fragmentation of UK as a result.

 

[Koschei]

Maybe I'm biased because I'm European and grew up after we joined EU, but the entire Brexit thing was a huge joke. From the campaign to the voting participation. Winning by a 2% margin when a majority of the people who'll live with it wanted to stay, it just irks me to no end. I'd be in favour of another vote, where either side needs 70% or more to win. Plus, the racism and hate toward "immigrants" kind of shows it was more about that, rather than independence from EU regulations.

Not speaking of the effects it'll have on other EU countries. Mine has been saying "if Britain leaves so will we", and I really don't look forward to that shitfest.

IMHO, anyway. Not 110% invested in the whole ordeal, but I've done some pretty good reading, at least.

 

[Hecatoncheires]

GODDAMMIT, YOU'RE ALL MAKING ME TALK POLITICS MORE.

Anyways, Scottish fellow here. Lemme see if I can't explain what's occurring up in this neck of the woods.

OCH AYE THE NOO'

Important disclosure: I voted No in the Scottish Referendum. Y'know, that referendum? That we had last year? Where we decided to remain in the UK?

I stress this cos the SNP would really like you to forget that referendum ever happened.

Fast-forward to Brexit, and my countrymen did indeed give their majority vote to Remain. It's worth noting that the majority isn't as huge as some SNP types are playing it up to be; around 40% of Scottish folks did vote Leave, it's important to remember. It's not a majority, but neither was the 45% of folks who voted to leave the UK and they haven't shut up about it since either.

We didn't vote as Scotland, though. We voted as part of the UK. For us to turn around now and go "WELP, DIDN'T GET THE RESULTS WE WANTED SO WE OUT, BYE" is as bad in my book as the people calling for a second referendum ("WE'LL KEEP DOING DEMOCRACY UNTIL YOU DO THE DEMOCRACY THE WAY WE WANT YOU TO DEMOCRACY") or the folks hankering for parliament to overturn the results. We're a part of the UK, so the "us vs. them" argument of "OH BUT WE DIDN'T CHOOSE IT" doesn't fly. Yes, we did. We're British.

Besides, France and Spain have already made it clear they'll be blocking any attempts for Scotland to remain in the EU, so this pipe-dream the SNP are touting about us getting to stick with the EU is falling apart pretty rapidly.

I think Hellis was mentioning the fishing industry earlier, too. I'm mates with several folk from Orkney (and Shetland) whose families are long-time fishermen, so I can probably explain a bit about how the EU basically fucked that entire industry, too.

OCH AYE THE FISHIN'

So the EU's method of trying to curb excessive fishing (which is indeed a problem) is to slap a flat weight limit on how much trawlers are allowed to bring back and sell. Going over this results in consequences and so on. This is a policy that probably makes sense to you if you're a politician/bureaucrat who's never actually worked on a trawler, buuuuuuut in practice it doesn't actually solve the problem at all.

Fishing trawls don't know how much fish they're scooping up, after all, so fishermen can't exactly go "oh lawdy, we've hit our limit, time to haul up the line" the second it happens. All they can do is trawl their route, bring up the catch, weigh it, then chuck all the excess fish (most of which is dead by this point) back in the sea.

Which is another way of saying the EU fishing policies basically do fuck all to prevent excessive fishing (which is what they were supposed to be designed to do), but their weight limits still fuck over small fishing businesses.

The fishermen I know from Orkney have been trying to suggest better means of controlling the over fishing issue. A lot of them have suggested limiting the number of days a trawler can be out on the sea; that will actually lessen the damage to fish populations, and allow fishing businesses to plan their budgets a lot more easily. EU bureaucracy being what it is, though (and fuckwits like Farage being our voice for it, admittedly), nothing's ever come of it.

Koschei raises a good point about voter turnout, as well. Especially given that only around 36% of people aged 18-24 (y'know, those same fuckers bemoaning their futures now) are supposed to have actually voted. They can bitch and moan all they want, now. I've no fucking sympathy.

You were given the right to express your opinion in our country's future, a right that people have fought and died for, that people are still fighting and dying for elsewhere in the world. And you chose not to exercise it.

You don't get to then turn around and go "OH, I'M NOT HAPPY WITH ALL THIS". Tough titties, sunshine, welcome to CONSEQUENCES CITY, POPULATION: you, and every other fuckwit who chose not to vote.

 

[Brovo]

Koschei raises a good point about voter turnout, as well. Especially given that only around 36% of people aged 18-24 (y'know, those same fuckers bemoaning their futures now) are supposed to have actually voted. They can bitch and moan all they want, now. I've no fucking sympathy.

You were given the right to express your opinion in our country's future, a right that people have fought and died for, that people are still fighting and dying for elsewhere in the world. And you chose not to exercise it.

You don't get to then turn around and go "OH, I'M NOT HAPPY WITH ALL THIS". Tough titties, sunshine, welcome to CONSEQUENCES CITY, POPULATION: you, and every other fuckwit who chose not to vote.

Also can't forget that a whole bunch of signatures on the second referendum petition weren't even UK citizens.

Some 39,411 residents of Vatican City, home to Pope Francis, appeared to have signed the petition by Sunday morning, despite the tiny city state having a total population of just 8001​.

I'm not a citizen of the UK whatsoever. I can have whatever personal opinion of this I wish at the end of the day, but it doesn't matter. Decision has been made, votes have been cast. Party leader stepped down. Let the ruling party get a new head on its shoulders (because it by all rights just lost its metaphorical head, give em' a little time to get a new one) and then invoke article 50.

As a member of the commonwealth I wouldn't have cared if the UK voted Remain or Leave, my sentiment would be the same: Good luck Britain. Hopefully the rest of the world can get over itself long enough to deal with reality and make something healthy out of this. The time for fearmongering and propaganda and finger-pointing is over. (Ah, who am I kidding, it'll never be over. It's a wonderful notion though, innit?)

 

[Gwazi Magnum]

Koschei raises a good point about voter turnout, as well. Especially given that only around 36% of people aged 18-24 (y'know, those same fuckers bemoaning their futures now) are supposed to have actually voted. They can bitch and moan all they want, now. I've no fucking sympathy.

You were given the right to express your opinion in our country's future, a right that people have fought and died for, that people are still fighting and dying for elsewhere in the world. And you chose not to exercise it.

You don't get to then turn around and go "OH, I'M NOT HAPPY WITH ALL THIS". Tough titties, sunshine, welcome to CONSEQUENCES CITY, POPULATION: you, and every other fuckwit who chose not to vote.

I share the lack of sympathy for the people who chose not to vote but are now complaining.

But I think part of the Young VS Old Complaint wasn't the percentage of young people who voted but rather what the ratio of young vs old ended up being.

Spoiler

Where it seems the Leave Camp was mainly supported by people who don't have too many years left, while those who wanted to remain were mainly those who had their entire life ahead of them. That being said though, this is a critique that could be given to any sort of election so I don't think the age argument holds much water no matter how you spin it. Just thought I should try to clarify what the actual complaint was.

 

[Pachamac]

Referendums are non binding, only advisory. It still needs to actually be passed through parliament before it comes into effect, so there's no actual guarantee of Brexit occuring just yet. It'd probably be political suicide to try and repeal the decision, but it's still just that - not set in stone. I'm not going to suggest that there should neccessarily be a second referendum on the issue, although it might be a good idea for the government to pursue considering how much the public mood has changed within the last week and how so many of the Brexit campaign's claims have been proven unlikely at best or lies at their worst. Idk. I still feel proceeding with anything as extraordinarily drastic as this with deep, long lasting ramifications over only a 48/52 split is absolutely ludicrous, but we can only see.

As an aside tho, and not to get into too big of a debate about it, but whilst it's true that a good number of the signees for that second referendum are from people outside of the UK, it still has over 4 million signatures. Just because some people are tarring that from being abroad doesn't mean it should be ignored, especially when Parliament has to debate any petition that reaches 100,000 signatures anyway. I think it's done a pretty good job of eclipsing that :P

 

[Dervish]

Koschei raises a good point about voter turnout, as well. Especially given that only around 36% of people aged 18-24 (y'know, those same fuckers bemoaning their futures now) are supposed to have actually voted. They can bitch and moan all they want, now. I've no fucking sympathy.

You were given the right to express your opinion in our country's future, a right that people have fought and died for, that people are still fighting and dying for elsewhere in the world. And you chose not to exercise it.

You don't get to then turn around and go "OH, I'M NOT HAPPY WITH ALL THIS". Tough titties, sunshine, welcome to CONSEQUENCES CITY, POPULATION: you, and every other fuckwit who chose not to vote.

I've always been a proponent that if you don't vote, you don't get the right to bitch about how things are going. Just because you were too lazy to walk out the door on election day doesn't mean everyone else should care what you have to say. You neglect to exercise a right and freedom in a democracy that people across the world are still fighting for and often getting imprisoned or killed for, that's your problem you turd.

 

[Gwazi Magnum]

I'm very much against the UK doing a second referendum, even if it's only advice technically speaking.

Reason for that is that you're not going to get accurate results the second time around. Like look at it from a Brexit standpoint, you already voted and have decided to leave. Suddenly they vote once more, they're likely to look at it and think it's just an attempt to undermine them, and if they think it will keep happening they might just give up on voting at best. At worst your divide and riots gets worth because of people democratic rights being put in danger.

And from a Remain side, this is going to be a rally call. They're going to come on mass just so they can one-up Brexit compared to last time.

Basically, you turn voting into a test of endurance. Not the best way to get accurate public opinion.

 

[Kagayours]

I've always been a proponent that if you don't vote, you don't get the right to bitch about how things are going. Just because you were too lazy to walk out the door on election day doesn't mean everyone else should care what you have to say. You neglect to exercise a right and freedom in a democracy that people across the world are still fighting for and often getting imprisoned or killed for, that's your problem you turd.

Eh. I don't think it always just has to do with being "too lazy". Depending on the situation, voting might not be feasible for everyone.

THAT BEING SAID, I HAVE NO IDEA HOW EASY/DIFFICULT IT WAS TO REGISTER TO VOTE IN THIS PARTICULAR REFERENDUM -- so maybe that really is a non-issue. But, at least using the US primaries as an example, I can say that it's not always just an issue of laziness.

Like, the primaries for New York State (where I live) happened last April. But if you wanted to vote in the Democratic/Republican primaries, you would've needed to register as a member of that party last November. I knew plenty of Bernie-supporters who wanted to vote in the Democratic primary, but couldn't because they were registered as independents, and didn't even know about Bernie -- or know that they needed to register as Democrats so far ahead of time -- until long after the deadline had passed.

And then there's also the issue of location. I was in college at the time, but I was registered to vote in my hometown, and it wouldn't have been feasible to travel there on election day. Now, of course, there are absentee ballots -- which are precisely the reason why I was able to vote -- but, it took me a fair amount of effort just to figure out how to properly sign up for an absentee ballot. And even though I was diligent enough to plan to be able to vote months ahead of schedule, I can understand why some people might not have thought to do that, and might've tried to register for absentee voting only to realize they were too late.

Or, you know, there might've been people who didn't even know that absentee voting was a thing in the first place. It's not like I was ever taught how to do any of this stuff in school (which is a whole other issue), I had to figure it all out for myself. >_> And, yes, you could make the argument that a person should be responsible for figuring this stuff out on their own, but, you know, some people are just busy. Some people are struggling to juggle school and a job among other things and, well, if they don't have time to plan out how they're going to be able to vote months in advance then, well, I can't blame them. >_> Voting isn't always as easy as just making sure to take time out of your day to get to a poll when the election rolls around (although I encountered many people who thought it would be that easy, only to be turned down at the polls because they hadn't registered properly -- because they didn't know that they needed to do anything else).

So then, when the New York primaries were finished, and they announced that Hillary won, there were plenty of Bernie-supporters who were, understandably, expressing their disappointment. And the overwhelming response was "well then you should've gone out and voted for him you lazy fucks" -- even though the majority of disappointed commenters seemed to be people that, if they hadn't voted for him, had at least attempted to vote for him but just couldn't for whatever reason. Again, you could argue that they wouldn't have run into problems if they had just been more diligent about it, but, if they aren't aware of what the requirements are ahead of time, and are so busy juggling life that researching all of this just isn't on their mind then, well, I can at least sympathize with their situation. >_> I'd hate to be the person who thought that they were being diligent and on-top-of things by looking up how to vote properly 4-5 months in advance, only for them to realize that they were registered as an independent and that they just barely missed the deadline for changing it. >_>

BUT AGAIN, I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT PEOPLE HAD TO DO TO VOTE IN THE BREXIT REFERENDUM. MAYBE IT WAS EASY AS BALLS FOR ALL I KNOW. But, in general, I really don't like the sentiment of "people who didn't vote shouldn't be allowed to complain because it's their fault they didn't get off their lazy ass and do it". Poor voter turnout among younger people is a big problem in the US, as well, and I think the issue might be a bit more complicated than simply "young people these days are too lazy to complain". >_>

 

[Hecatoncheires]

You can literally register online now. Or register for a postal vote. Or pop into your local electoral office. Or do it over the phone.

There seriously isn't an excuse, if you actually take just a little bit of time to get it done.

 

[Brovo]

Where it seems the Leave Camp was mainly supported by people who don't have too many years left, while those who wanted to remain were mainly those who had their entire life ahead of them.

As though old people don't care about the future consequences their vote could have on the country they are likely going to die in and the children they likely gave birth to who will grow up with the result of their decision.

Pretty macabre line of thinking there. Might want to try something else.

 

[The Dovah]

As a young person(well, in the 18-24 age group), I had a damn good reason to not vote. Literally all of my life is currently focused on getting a goddamn job. I could have tried to spend hours, days and listening to all the arguments from both sides and voted but it may have put a lot of stress on me and it is something i could do without. I've been overwhelmed by stress before. Resulted in burning out, chest infection. To say that I, as a british citzen do not have a right to complain is rather wrong imo. If there is one thing we brits pride ourselves on is complaining.

If i was forced to vote, i would have voted LEAVE just to spite David Cameron. He and his cronies are destroying the UK. Ian Dickhead Smith views people like me as "Workshy fuckers who can live on £59 a week and should be forced to spend 35 hours a week doing nothing but looking for work and god help them if they so much as disobey what we have to say." Yeah, i hate the tories. I loathe Instant Dickishness Smith. If he becomes PM, i'm fucked. He will probably force us to do full time work for nothing at fucking poundland and then issue orders to chuck everyone off the dole because they are not doing enough to look for work whilst doing poundland forced work.

Ah, shit didn't mean to go off topic but people my age hate him. Hell, everyone hates him.

Jeremy Cunt can fuck off if he thinks he can rule the country. This was a man that claimed our junior doctors weren't working enough and didn't do weekends when the truth was that they were overworked, did weekends and were protesting at a big reduction in pay due to the longer mandatory hours for less pay. He also refused to speak with actual Junior Doctors when they offered the chance to. Or invited him to see them in action at a weekend. Something like that.


Regarding voting, I know i could have done it online but I would have wanted to do a lot of research, gather opinions and spend hours to days doing it. I simply can't afford to do that when life of Dovah is focused on getting a job.

 

[Kagayours]

You can literally register online now.

You could register to vote online during the NY primaries, too, and if you were registering for the very first time, then it would be easy. But if you had registered for the first time as an independent, and couldn't change it before November? Out of luck...

Or register for a postal vote.

And how do you do that? Odds are some people just might not know.

Or pop into your local electoral office.

But what if you're a college student living in another city, and your "local electoral office" is one that you don't have an opportunity to travel to?

There seriously isn't an excuse, if you actually take just a little bit of time to get it done.

All I'm saying is, people might have reasons for not being able to do it -- especially if they're busy people who don't know what they're doing and don't have the time to research things and figure it out on their own. I know I used a different election as an example, but, sometimes, taking a few minutes to do something just isn't enough. Especially if you miss some deadline that you didn't even know about.


And I realize that the difficulty of being able to vote for something would vary on a case-by-case basis, so, again, maybe the Brexit referendum wasn't nearly as hard to register for as the NY primaries. But, my point is, I just don't like the general sentiment of "you can't complain if you didn't get off your lazy ass and vote" because some people did get off their lazy ass, only to find out that they'd done something too late or incorrectly or that they had to jump through a bunch of different hoops that just weren't feasible for them. To say nothing of the fact that people -- at least in the US -- generally aren't very well educated about how to do any of this, and it can sometimes be a real headache to figure out for yourself.

And if someone cares enough about something to rant and rave online and encourage others to vote a certain way, then I'm willing to bet that many of them at least fucking tried to vote. Yeah, I'm sure there were at least some people who really were too lazy to try. But I certainly don't want to assume that was the case for virtually every member of a large group of people.