Britain is leaving the European Union

[Brovo]

It's happening. Leave won.

So, here is the arbitrary discussion thread for it. Keep it civil, talk about it here if y'all would like.

I for one have many mixed feelings about this. I was and still am pro-leave, but I have a terrible, unsettling feeling in my gut that the far right of Europe was watching, and will gladly look at this as a rallying cry.

And, if you live in the UK, and y'all voted (leave or stay), why did you vote the way you did? How do you feel about the results?

EDIT

Also, yes, you can still obviously vote in the poll even if you don't live in the UK. It's a hypothetical question about an ideological choice that actually occurred.

 

[Winter]

You know in regards to preserving NHS specifically, voting leave was perhaps the worst thing UK could have done.

At least if we're going by the reasoning provided earlier in this thread about immigrants from Germany draining it's resources, and this is for two main reasons.

1. While in the EU, the UK's effective border isn't even at their own Borders, but stationed somewhere in France with French border control helping them. Leaving the EU has a good chance of ending that arrangement, and forcing UK to pull back to their own Island border, allowing immigrants to not only get farther but once their found UK now needs to front the cost for sending them back (and remember, UK was already one of the exceptions to Schengen that was causing Germany's open invite to send so many immigrants elsewhere).

2. Even in the chance that Schengen was resulting in a ton of Immigrants popping up in the UK and then using their NHS, being a EU nation the EU would have to take responsibility and send in aid. Now if the amount of immigrants using the NHS increases (which is fairly likely given #1) the EU isn't obligated to do anything.

As for the rest of Brexit? I'm taking a mainly "Wait and see" approach, but the NHS motivation specifically was insanely flawed.

Your second point contradicted itself, at least partly. I would refer you back to a previous post I made about the NHS. Remaining would have 'guaranteed' the fall of the NHS. Leaving gives it a chance.

 

[Gwazi Magnum]

Your second point contradicted itself, at least partly. I would refer you back to a previous post I made about the NHS. Remaining would have 'guaranteed' the fall of the NHS. Leaving gives it a chance.

I see no contradiction. I was stating even in the likelihood immigration started such a NHS problem the EU would have been a fallback. But now if it happens the EU doesn't need to do anything, and considering how UK's ability to control immigration actually decreases (closer borders, not Shengen to begin with) the risk would logically be even higher once the split does happen.

I'm not trying to pretend you guys were in a good situation in that regard with the EU, it was still bad. But if you look at the causes of why the NHS got taken advantage of, and then look at what leaving can do to influence said causes it does seem to point in the direction of getting worse. So comparing the two, from what I can tell it's leaving that would 'guarantee' it because all the stressors towards it suddenly get's higher.

That being said, I'm not sure where anyone get's the idea such a thing is guaranteed in the first place. Health Care is one of the things the vast majority of 1st world countries value insanely highly, any government daring to remove it would face insane backlash from the civilian populous and be effectively doomed to never get elected again.

 

[Pachamac]

How does Remaining 'guarantee' the fall of the NHS? o.o

I'm actually in agreement with Gwazi over this. Immigration has helped put pressure on the NHS although I seriously doubt it's to the extent that the majority of the people believed it did. Lack of investment from Tory goverment as a result of austerity measures and a desire from some within it to privatise it is the number one reason. That and, like Gwazi said, any actual attempt from a government to fully implement a privatisation of the NHS would likely incite riots regardless.

Leave however doesn't put the NHS in any better position at all, especially when the most likely trade agreement the UK would get with the EU is the EEA treaty that Norway has (and which a lot of Brexit lead campaigners are pushing for) which... doesn't restrict the flow of EU migrants in any way whatsoever, and is for all intents and purposes the exact same deal the UK already has with the exception of us losing all say in any matters of discussions and the numerous other privileges the UK already had. EU migrants would still come in, still use the NHS in the same manner of pressure you believe they already are, and general investment towards the NHS would likely shrink as a means of having to cope with everything else that this brings. It's going to be much more difficult for the NHS now.

 

[Winter]

I see no contradiction. I was stating even in the likelihood immigration started such a NHS problem the EU would have been a fallback. But now if it happens the EU doesn't need to do anything, and considering how UK's ability to control immigration actually decreases (closer borders, not Shengen to begin with) the risk would logically be even higher once the split does happen.

I'm not trying to pretend you guys were in a good situation in that regard with the EU, it was still bad. But if you look at the causes of why the NHS got taken advantage of, and then look at what leaving can do to influence said causes it does seem to point in the direction of getting worse. So comparing the two, from what I can tell it's leaving that would 'guarantee' it because all the stressors towards it suddenly get's higher.

That being said, I'm not sure where anyone get's the idea such a thing is guaranteed in the first place. Health Care is one of the things the vast majority of 1st world countries value insanely highly, any government daring to remove it would face insane backlash from the civilian populous and be effectively doomed to never get elected again.

The likelihood that it started? it was already happening and the EU wasn't doing anything. Instead what we ended up doing was bailing out other countries from national dept. That isn't helping, that's making it harder. Also I think you're getting confused on how the border control works, having it closer doesn't mean greater risk, the fact we can control it and enforce new systems to prevent greater increase of immigration means it's vastly better as we're not obligated to let numbers in on the 'free movement' perk. If (and I hope it does) we push for an Australian point system, we'll have a staggering decrease in immigration which in the 'long term' will save our resources from straining. Also money saved in EU membership fee's is pushed back into the economy, meaning less cuts and more stability long term. The whole 350m going back into the NHS was absolute nonsense, but having it here rather than in Brussels' pockets opens more opportunity for this country to manage itself in a more beneficial way.

 

[Pachamac]

The UK didn't bail out Greece. We were also protected from bailing out any other countries.

Better border controls would be ideal however the most likely trade agreement the UK would reach with the EU is, as I said, the EEA Treaty which Norway currently has with them, which still neccessitates the free movement of people in order to be a part of the single market and still contribute heavily to the European budget. The EU are unlikely to give the UK a much more favourable deal then that because... why would they? It's in their interests to not give us a great deal to prevent more unrest from other european countries whom might be considering the possibility of an exit.

Also bare in mind that 70% of British exports are service based. As far as goods go, I'm unsure what exactly we actually have to trade to other people? And on top of all of that, actually negotiating trade deals with other countries looks set to be one of the biggest hurdles we'll have. The UK hasn't negotiated any trade deals in 40 years and has very few negotiators employed to actually do the job. It's a logistical nightmare. And I mean, again, greater control of borders would be fine except... the country still needs to, y'know, actually trade its stuff in order to have an economy. And accomplishing that trade with Europe whilst also strengthening its borders looks set to be unrealistic.

 

[Gwazi Magnum]

The likelihood that it started? it was already happening and the EU wasn't doing anything. Instead what we ended up doing was bailing out other countries from national dept.

At the time. The EU functioned a lot like a Federal Government in that respect, like Canada's for example. For us, Alberta would have been the UK in regards to sending money up in taxes that get distrubted to the other provinces. Alberta spends at the time because it could afford it. But then the giant fire happened, and when Alberta was suddenly in trouble Canada didn't just turn their backs and say "Deal with it yourself". Aid was sent on mass, which is exactly what the EU could be expected to do for the UK. And not just an obligation standpoint mind you, it'd be silly for the EU is allow one of it's richer countries to suddenly tank because then they lose economic power.

Also I think you're getting confused on how the border control works, having it closer doesn't mean greater risk, the fact we can control it and enforce new systems to prevent greater increase of immigration means it's vastly better as we're not obligated to let numbers in on the 'free movement' perk.

Except the UK wasn't part of Schengen to begin with. There were on a specific list of exceptions to that rule. All that really changes in that front is France will likely no longer help with border enforcement, which puts more demand (and tax dollars) on the UK.

Also money saved in EU membership fee's is pushed back into the economy, meaning less cuts and more stability long term.

You mean a small portion of 1% of taxes? Because only 1% of taxes went to the EU, and the majority of that was returned by one means or another. And you also need to factor in all the increased Costs UK will now need to pay as they essentially remodel everything.

 

[Winter]

Actually I'm not going to reply to this anymore. At this point I'm pretty sure I'm not going to be changing anyone's mind and I don't much feel like spending my day off trying to convince people otherwise on things no one knows about, since everything is theory until we actually see what happens. I'm not a politician and I'm quite sure most of the people commenting aren't either, so going around in circles in what we all believe to be right isn't going to get anyone anywhere. With the NHS, I've been able to see and experience it first hand as my family work within it so personally I feel very confident in it's future now. Even if leaving was the worse decision, people should be looking to help make it better instead of moaning about it. What's done is done, there's still a promising future to be had.

 

[Gwazi Magnum]

I'm respecting your wish not to continue it, but there's a clarification I feel needs to be made first.

Even if leaving was the worse decision, people should be looking to help make it better instead of moaning about it. What's done is done, there's still a promising future to be had.

It's not so much moaning as it's debating/addressing where Brexit likely caused damage. And one of the best ways to solve a problem is to identify a source/cause and understand how it lead to the problem. So by debating this stuff we do set up a foundation to help Brexit fare better later.

 

[Winter]

I'm respecting your wish not to continue it, but there's a clarification I feel needs to be made first.

It's not so much moaning as it's debating/addressing where Brexit likely caused damage. And one of the best ways to solve a problem is to identify a source/cause and understand how it lead to the problem. So by debating this stuff we do set up a foundation to help Brexit fare better later.

I'm sorry but debating the results on a website isn't going to help anything. It's what's done 'here' that's going to have the real effect, and that means the results of future trade agreements and stratagems put in place to help various important bushiness continue as they had been. George Osborne and Mervyn King have already laid allot of it to rest, so all that really remains is what's on the horizon in the next couple years leading to and beyond article 50 when we'll actually be leaving. Remaining would've had it's own share of damages, which is why I always took the decision as a vote for what I believed to be the lesser of two evils. The long term is what ultimately matters in my opinion, and it will be defined by the decisions made in the coming years.

 

[The Dovah]

The French (or at least, some of their politicans) are calling for border controls to be scrapped. Atm, France handles the border stuff in Calais and they are wanting to scrap the treaty agreement. As someone that lives in the town nearest to france(with what is often said to be Britian's busiest port), it would kill our town. We're kinda suffering from poor investment and just rotting. Hopefully, the rest of France won't want the treaty to be torn up but i do think discussing it is a good idea. And i have heard that the EU is going to become a superstate that handles everything and only has one parliment. We dodged that bullet.

There would have been no chance in hell of us keeping the pound(and we would have fought for it very hard) if we had remained and well, we would have probably encountered a lot of issues that we would have no control over. E.g. taxes, being forced to give priority to certain stuff over our own people. Such as housing and us having a bit of a crisis on atm. etc...

Sure, the pound is low but it's a kneejerk reaction and we'll bounce back. The EU is more or less demanding we allow free movement if we want to still have access to the market. I don't see that happening. We just wanted control over our borders and to try to sort out the country.

The NHS is bad shape, unable to cope and there is a common conception that people from the EU come over just to exploit it. I deny or confirm if that is the case as the sources are questionable and don't want to risk coming off as racist(i am not and apologise in advance if any of this post came off as such) but it is stretched to breaking point.

Our transportation system is aging and badly invested in. Our train system is shit. It is 200 years old and we can only upgrade it so much before we are forced to go "Fuck it. rip the bastard up. Replace it with a new one." etc..

And i think, we import more then we export. If the EU bans us from their market, i'm sure the US, China and others will be willing to pick up the slack.

Farage was apparently attacked(verbally) by some MEPs in EU parliment but well, it's Farage. It is hard not to think of him as a posh big nosed twat that loves to go on about immigrations, the "Evils" of EU etc..


France can kick up a stink if it wants. We, brits have a understanding. They complain, we ignore them and drink our tea.

YEAH! TAKE THAT YOU PEOPLE OF FRANCE! :P

Regarding border control, basically.....

it's shit. The Britian First thugs would have you believe it's due to the EU and erm... i flat out refuse to mention what they blame it on but they like to go on about a certain thing being the cause for everything. It is not the case. The Border Control is just shit because of poor management, various government policies, cuts, expecting one person to do the job of 5 etc..


And there are calls for a second election. Some are claiming that "Voter fraud" happened but it's just a minority of people more or less being upset about not getting their way and want another one and no doubt, would keep demanding one every time until they get their results.


As i've mentioned, i'm positive about our future. No interference. No silly rules and with luck, we can revive our dying fishing industry. I mean, we're a bloody big island! All of the things we could be exporting, we don't do fish.

Sadly, racist thugs like BF are using the Leave result as an excuse to be violent thugs towards people they view as not british and being racist bastards. Sadly, this paints anyone that is happy with the leave result as racists and already, people are being classed as "Oh, you voted leave? Fucking racist.". :(

 

[Gwazi Magnum]

Why did the EU stop the UK's fishing industry to begin with?
Did it have to do with managing the fish population or something?

 

[Hellis]

The French (or at least, some of their politicans) are calling for border controls to be scrapped. Atm, France handles the border stuff in Calais and they are wanting to scrap the treaty agreement. As someone that lives in the town nearest to france(with what is often said to be Britian's busiest port), it would kill our town. We're kinda suffering from poor investment and just rotting. Hopefully, the rest of France won't want the treaty to be torn up but i do think discussing it is a good idea. And i have heard that the EU is going to become a superstate that handles everything and only has one parliment. We dodged that bullet.

There would have been no chance in hell of us keeping the pound(and we would have fought for it very hard) if we had remained and well, we would have probably encountered a lot of issues that we would have no control over. E.g. taxes, being forced to give priority to certain stuff over our own people. Such as housing and us having a bit of a crisis on atm. etc...

Sure, the pound is low but it's a kneejerk reaction and we'll bounce back. The EU is more or less demanding we allow free movement if we want to still have access to the market. I don't see that happening. We just wanted control over our borders and to try to sort out the country.

The NHS is bad shape, unable to cope and there is a common conception that people from the EU come over just to exploit it. I deny or confirm if that is the case as the sources are questionable and don't want to risk coming off as racist(i am not and apologise in advance if any of this post came off as such) but it is stretched to breaking point.

Our transportation system is aging and badly invested in. Our train system is shit. It is 200 years old and we can only upgrade it so much before we are forced to go "Fuck it. rip the bastard up. Replace it with a new one." etc..

And i think, we import more then we export. If the EU bans us from their market, i'm sure the US, China and others will be willing to pick up the slack.

Farage was apparently attacked(verbally) by some MEPs in EU parliment but well, it's Farage. It is hard not to think of him as a posh big nosed twat that loves to go on about immigrations, the "Evils" of EU etc..


France can kick up a stink if it wants. We, brits have a understanding. They complain, we ignore them and drink our tea.

YEAH! TAKE THAT YOU PEOPLE OF FRANCE! :P

Regarding border control, basically.....

it's shit. The Britian First thugs would have you believe it's due to the EU and erm... i flat out refuse to mention what they blame it on but they like to go on about a certain thing being the cause for everything. It is not the case. The Border Control is just shit because of poor management, various government policies, cuts, expecting one person to do the job of 5 etc..


And there are calls for a second election. Some are claiming that "Voter fraud" happened but it's just a minority of people more or less being upset about not getting their way and want another one and no doubt, would keep demanding one every time until they get their results.




As i've mentioned, i'm positive about our future. No interference. No silly rules and with luck, we can revive our dying fishing industry. I mean, we're a bloody big island! All of the things we could be exporting, we don't do fish.

Sadly, racist thugs like BF are using the Leave result as an excuse to be violent thugs towards people they view as not british and being racist bastards. Sadly, this paints anyone that is happy with the leave result as racists and already, people are being classed as "Oh, you voted leave? Fucking racist.". :(

EU is not gonna become a superstate. I really don't know why people swallow such bizarre ideas without consideration. I think you confuse the federalist movement for some sort of totalitarian reality. The faction won't get what they want either way. There is not a chance any government would give up the independence.


Britain's treaty with France SHOULD be broke up if we look at it from a French perspective. You guys decided to weaken the EU and left. You should have none of the benefits. You should have to renegotiate.

And of course racism will explode as a result. Nigel and Boris ran their campaign as "Take Britain" back. And played on the immigrant/refugees angle every chance they got.

The fishing rules are in place to prevent overfishing by the way. Most of these "silly" rules are there for a reason and many of those are environmental. But it is nice to see some still cling to isolationist agenda and blame EU for all the shit. Wales and Cornwall have gotten proper fucked by this. They rely on EU grants. Scotland seems to be gunning for proper independence to remain in the EU.

 

[Gwazi Magnum]

The fishing rules are in place to prevent overfishing by the way.

That's what I figured, didn't make much sense why the EU would restrict it otherwise.

 

[Hellis]

Now for the real irony. Nigel fucking Farage was in EU'S fishing commis hon or whatever it was called. Where he had a chance to help Britain on the issue. He rarely if ever attended.

 

[Brovo]

Sadly, racist thugs like BF are using the Leave result as an excuse to be violent thugs towards people they view as not british and being racist bastards. Sadly, this paints anyone that is happy with the leave result as racists and already, people are being classed as "Oh, you voted leave? Fucking racist.". :(

Sadly, whether or not Leave succeeded, these people would have taken it as an excuse to be racist bigots.

"Oh, we voted Leave. What the fuck are you still doing here?"
Or...
"Oh, you treacherous shits voted Remain. No chance for us to save our island, too many of you filthy [inserts] here."

Hatred does not need reason, it merely needs fuel.

Britain's treaty with France SHOULD be broke up if we look at it from a French perspective. You guys decided to weaken the EU and left. You should have none of the benefits. You should have to renegotiate.

Termination of all treaties all at once on both sides would only cause untold damage to both sides. Cooler heads need to prevail and ease the process through to minimize damage. There are non-EU countries who possess economic and immigration deals with the EU, start with them as examples. Britain is not betraying Europe, she's pursuing her own interests, as any country does.

And of course racism will explode as a result. Nigel and Boris ran their campaign as "Take Britain" back. And played on the immigrant/refugees angle every chance they got.

Eh', it was gonna explode either way with how close the vote got. If Leave lost, you'd be seeing just as much, only under the banner of "we've lost too much of our country to [insert], rage against them all." I'm also not surprised they played on the migrant crisis, every politician at this point is playing on it one way or another--it's a major issue of which major political parties have differing opinions on what to do about it. So long as none of them go "put them in gas chambers" I think we're okay, right or left wing.

Wales

I have no idea why they voted leave. I really don't. I just can't conceive of it being within their interests, but, the mob is the mob.

Also, isolationist? One of the biggest campaign slogans and promises for Leave was the idea that they could go out and make trade deals with everyone instead of just the EU. That's the opposite of isolationist. Unless you're talking about the immigration policy? In which case, I commonly heard that they wanted to implement an Australia-style points system. Which is right here. Which, given that they're worried about depleting space on their island that has millions of people on it as is, I can't overly blame them for not wanting a complete open door policy.

 

[Hellis]

Giving the middle finger to EU is exactly what they are doing. You have Nigel Farage berating people in public down in Brussels. Stating "We don't need you, you need us". The English politicians nad media have blamed everything on EU for the past 10 years at the least. So pray tell, how is this not about giving us the finger and renegading on the Europe. Nigel Farage (this name will pop up a lot) have even spoken of EU nationals as "hostages"

Lord Pearson said this:

"My Lords, I am most grateful. Do the Government accept that there are about 3 million EU nationals living at present in the United Kingdom, but there are also 1.2 million British people living in the European Union? When present tensions have calmed down, why would either Brussels or London want to do anything to upset this mutually beneficial situation? Do the Government agree however, that if the EU were to get difficult with our nationals living there, it is we who hold the stronger hand if we retaliate, because so many more of them are living here?"

So, I am sorry. But there is prevalent elements of FUCK EU.

So long as none of them go "put them in gas chambers" I think we're okay, right or left wing.

I refuse to accept this lazy "Oh well we are not killing them" rethoric.

Boris supporters openly share and spread stuff like; "What do we want. A Muslim or a Patriotic Brit." This is nationalism. I know its a trend on the net to get behind Populists and blame everything on fringe elements and say "Oh it would happen either way". It would not have happened if the Leave campaign hadn't been headed by people like Nigel fucking Farage.


The Leave campaign was built on lies (See, UKIP and the NHS. Or the Torrys and movement of free labor) which they are packpaddling on at lightning speed. The other half was very thinly veiled scaremongering in regards to immigrants and refugees. You don't have sudden spikes in racially/xenophobicly motivated violence without a undercurrent of nationalism. A undercurrent fanned on and on by fear mongering politicians. EU is far from perfect, and Euro-Sceptism is not all wrong. Its a massive political body, there is bound to be problems stemming it from it. But only a blind or willfully ignorant man will look the other way when the right wing acts up. Europe has a trackrecord. Recession and nationalism and fragmentation of European Unity....

 

[Brovo]

So, I am sorry. But there is prevalent elements of FUCK EU.

Didn't deny that at any point actually. One would imagine that a faction whose primary objective is "do not be part of the EU" would have anti-EU sentiments. Wouldn't make much sense otherwise.

I refuse to accept this lazy "Oh well we are not killing them" rethoric.

Boris supporters openly share and spread stuff like; "What do we want. A Muslim or a Patriotic Brit." This is nationalism. I know its a trend on the net to get behind Populists and blame everything on fringe elements and say "Oh it would happen either way". It would not have happened if the Leave campaign hadn't been headed by people who Nigel fucking Farage.


The Leave campaign was built on lies (See, UKIP and the NHS. Or the Torrys and movement of free labor) which they are packpaddling on at lightning speed. The other half was very thinly veiled scaremongering in regards to immigrants and refugees. You don't have sudden spikes in racially/xenophobicly motivated violence without a undercurrent of nationalism. A undercurrent fanned on and on by fear mongering politicians. EU is far from perfect, and Euro-Sceptism is not all wrong. Its a massive political body, there is bound to be problems stemming it from it. But only a blind or willfully ignorant man will look the other way when the right wing acts up. Europe has a trackrecord. Recession and nationalism and fragmentation of European Unity....

I'm not going to blame an entire movement for the fringe elements within that movement. I can't expect the right wing or the left wing to keep every single person within their political spheres in line when said political spheres exist in the realm of millions of people a piece.

Europe also has a track record for left wing nationalism. The Eastern Bloc says hello.

Recessions were occurring before Brexit. Greece fell apart all on is own. Spain and Italy are following right behind it. France's economy has completely stalled. The migrant crisis is putting great strain on these already struggling economies.

So, yes. Regardless of whether Leave won or lost, the racism would still be there. If for no other reason than that people filled with hatred need no reason to perpetuate hatred than for its own sake.

Until negotiations about immigration and the status of EU/GB citizens starts, I'm not going to presume judgement yet. If Remain had won, I would be feeling the same way, since it was claimed that there would be an attempted renegotiation of certain elements of the EU. A government does not always reflect the fringe elements that elected it there.

Also, if it means anything, I don't want to see Boris Johnson take power and head the negotiations. He's a pudgy little man with pudgy little pizza roll fingers who would fumble signing his own fucking name, leave alone negotiating anything remotely competent.

 

[Hellis]

Well on BOris we are in agreement. Luckily he stepped down from the race. Ironicly. that helped the pound a bit. That is how big of a fuckup he is. He pushed Leave out of his own ambition. He expected Cameron to initiate Article 50. That didn't happen. And now his plan is fucked.

 

[Brovo]

Well on BOris we are in agreement. Luckily he stepped down from the race. Ironicly. that helped the pound a bit. That is how big of a fuckup he is. He pushed Leave out of his own ambition. He expected Cameron to initiate Article 50. That didn't happen. And now his plan is fucked.

Well there you go. No Boris.

Now we just have to sit and wait for the future. See what happens.

 

[Hecatoncheires]

My money's on Teresa May, to be honest. Given that she's literally the only sane choice amongst the other contenders such as Michael Gove (despised as a prominent Leave voter and the absolute shitshow he led the English education system into), Jeremy Hunt Cunt (name says it all), and Stephen Crabb (who thinks that homosexuality can be cured).

If Labour wasn't currently in the midst of a re-enactment of the Night of the fucking Long Knives, I'd kinda be hoping for another General Election. But as it stands, that would just result in more Conservative gains.