Britain is leaving the European Union

Would you (or did you) vote for Britain to leave the EU?


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Brovo

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It's happening. Leave won.

So, here is the arbitrary discussion thread for it. Keep it civil, talk about it here if y'all would like.

I for one have many mixed feelings about this. I was and still am pro-leave, but I have a terrible, unsettling feeling in my gut that the far right of Europe was watching, and will gladly look at this as a rallying cry.

And, if you live in the UK, and y'all voted (leave or stay), why did you vote the way you did? How do you feel about the results?

EDIT

Also, yes, you can still obviously vote in the poll even if you don't live in the UK. It's a hypothetical question about an ideological choice that actually occurred.
 
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I'm just going to put this here:

To everyone saying we'll lose the NHS, we're not. We would have lost it if we stayed in the EU and I'll happily tell you why.

My family works closely with the NHS, specifically with dentistry and has done for many many years now. If we'd stayed in the EU we'd eventually lose the NHS altogether due to simple and obvious fact that it is severely strained, and the reason it's strained is due to the following.

With the 'Free Movement' perk of being in the EU comes migrants whom come here to make a new life, many of whom also seek to make use of our generous health care facilities. Now I don't know if you're aware but England is a small island compared to the rest of Europe and has limited resources that aren't equipped to dealing with the influx of EU migrants on the scale we've been seeing, especially when we've been receiving cuts to the NHS.

Now allot of people think that's all the issue consists of... it isn't. With more countries joining the EU such as Turkey and Macedonia, the prospect of more migrants poses a very real threat to the already breaking NHS which if pushed further, will collapse. This would mean that we'd effectively lose the NHS eventually by staying in the EU as we simply do not have the funding or resources to equip these facilities with the necessities that'd make them able to handle more patients.

I'm not saying that there is no risk of the NHS being privatized, although I don't believe nor have any reason to believe that will happen. However the choices were clear, stay in the EU and lose the NHS, or leave the EU and potentially have the option of trying to save it. For anyone whom is voting based on the NHS situation, the choice was clear.

I'm also a person whom relies on the NHS as I have a B12 deficiency that'll kill me without treatment, treatment I will have to pay for if we lose the NHS. Other members of my immediate family also share this deficiency so I want to make it clear this isn't something I've not researched thoroughly, even on top of having close perspectives on the NHS's condition.

Also for anyone whom is throwing about Boris Johnson's apparent rise to PM, don't be ridiculous. The Prime Minister is voted in by the people and I severely doubt they'll vote him in based on what I've been seeing in the general public's reaction to him, in conjunction to his popularity as the mayor of London.

If anyone has questions for me I'll happily answer them. But I firmly believe this:

We should be proud of our country and our people no matter what the eventuality of a given situation, and as a people we need to put aside these childish blames and silly notions of an apocalyptic end for the country. Now is the time when we all need to come together and work for a brighter future that'll benefit the generations of tomorrow. Or alternatively, you can do nothing and continue to dwell on all the theoretical negativity that has been fed by the opposing campaigning parties that scaremonger. We survived two world wars and rebuilt ourselves, be proud and work to build up England once more.
 
@Leave Supporters

I have a question. If the EU functioned as an election like the countries governments would you have still voted to leave?
Those who sacrifice freedom for security will have neither freedom or security. Only the people in charge will.
I'm sorry Brovo but that quote/saying is meaningless. If that was the only rationale we ran by then even laws like "Murder is illegal" means we lose freedom and security, because suddenly some form of freedom is being lost. Or something like taxes? Technically speaking people lose the freedom to keep all their belonging cause of those, which once again according to your quote would mean we now lack both freedom and security thanks to taxes.

I get what you're trying to say, and I agree with that message.
But this quote/saying specifically is just something that irritates the hell out of me for how much it simplifies a complicated issue.
 
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Ironic that you mentioned taxes in regards to that quote.

As when Ben Franklin wrote that quote in the letter to the Penn family, he was actually talking about taxes.


"It is a quotation that defends the authority of a legislature to govern in the interests of collective security. It means, in context, not quite the opposite of what it's almost always quoted as saying but much closer to the opposite than to the thing that people think it means.”
 
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I have a question. If the EU functioned as an election like the countries governments would you have still voted to leave?


It's a good question.

I'd have still voted to Leave it, though.

Centralised power is inherently bureaucratic, bloated and unwieldy. And you would still have the issue of the EU passing laws drafted by people who aren't affected by the laws they're passing.
 
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I’m still trying to figure out what is going on. As I’m going to be an immigrant.

I’m worried about my girlfriend. I’ll most likely be on a student visa. She won’t have anything.


Didn't really answer this one properly the first time, so lemme see if I can't clarify it a bit.

The Beeb has a rather nice article explaining the general gist of what's gonna happen, but the general consensus is that this will be a pretty long process. Article 50 states that the UK will have two years to negotiate an exit, but a lot of folks reckon it won't be finished until at least 2020.

So don't worry, we'll not be carving "FUCK OFF" into the cliffs of Dover any time soon.
 
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Er.....

Of course not. *hides tools* :P

We're not going to become a nation that goes "OI! YOU! GET OFF OUR LANDS!" and banned everyone from visiting. We merely want to rule ourselves. We'll be speaking to the EU about trade and fishing routes. The English Channel is a bit complicated. Techincally belongs to us but how the helll would we patrol it without the french kicking off? They tend to kick off about anything. Their fishermen i mean.

And people are wanting another one. 1million that is. No. You can't just demand another election because you didn't like the answer straight away. Else, we would have gotten the tory bastards out years ago.
 
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@Leave Supporters

I have a question. If the EU functioned as an election like the countries governments would you have still voted to leave?

I'm sorry Brovo but that quote/saying is meaningless. If that was the only rationale we ran by then even laws like "Murder is illegal" means we lose freedom and security, because suddenly some form of freedom is being lost. Or something like taxes? Technically speaking people lose the freedom to keep all their belonging cause of those, which once again according to your quote would mean we now lack both freedom and security thanks to taxes.

I get what you're trying to say, and I agree with that message.
But this quote/saying specifically is just something that irritates the hell out of me for how much it simplifies a complicated issue.
f65ad5f259d6e1a409fa82d690ae5510.jpg
There's a bit of a false equivalence here. Murder is a violation of human rights, hence why it is illegal.
Committing murder would not make you any freer, unlike the abolition of taxes.
 
We survived two world wars and rebuilt ourselves, be proud and work to build up England once more.
HAIL BRITANNIA! The first to abolish slavery and establish Magna Carta, and to never be defeated by dictatorial regimes.
I'm sorry Brovo but that quote/saying is meaningless. If that was the only rationale we ran by then even laws like "Murder is illegal" means we lose freedom and security, because suddenly some form of freedom is being lost. Or something like taxes? Technically speaking people lose the freedom to keep all their belonging cause of those, which once again according to your quote would mean we now lack both freedom and security thanks to taxes.

I get what you're trying to say, and I agree with that message.
But this quote/saying specifically is just something that irritates the hell out of me for how much it simplifies a complicated issue.
H'wat. Why are you reading so far into it?

There's a specific condition to the phrase that allows it to functionally make sense. Even then, it's a general sentiment--an ideal, a goal, an objective. Something to be aspired toward which technically is nigh impossible to achieve, but which drives society ever forward toward such a future anyway, and which warns it away from terrible courses.

The reason nobody (rational anyway) argues with murder being illegal is because it's a crime that abridges someone else's human rights to freedom. That is: Freedom over oneself. If someone murders you, that destroys freedom over oneself. The denial of the right to murder as you please is wrecking freedom for one action, but it's in the support and defense of another, more important, more vital, more integral, more universal freedom. It's the same reason we have laws against rape, or unlawful imprisonment/detainment, or other laws which abridge a specific action to protect a broad freedom.

The moment you start to sacrifice freedom for security (ex: pro-censorship laws to protect someone's feelings over someone else's right to free speech), is the moment you start to damage the fabric of western society. We are all irrevocably chained together. Weaken the chain anywhere, and we're all damaged. When you sacrifice freedom for security--not the security of a freedom, but security of oneself against the use of freedom--who gets to enforce that? Who will said people enforce it on? After a certain point, how do you revoke that privilege if it's used against you?

Therefore...

The moment you sacrifice freedom for security, is the moment those who get to enforce security will take your freedom, and life will ensure you get nothing back. Because they don't really care about you, they care about pursuing their own agenda, their own motives. Which could be benevolent, but who is to say that those who follow them will be as benevolent as they were?
 
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Didn't really answer this one properly the first time, so lemme see if I can't clarify it a bit.

The Beeb has a rather nice article explaining the general gist of what's gonna happen, but the general consensus is that this will be a pretty long process. Article 50 states that the UK will have two years to negotiate an exit, but a lot of folks reckon it won't be finished until at least 2020.

So don't worry, we'll not be carving "FUCK OFF" into the cliffs of Dover any time soon.
That is what I am worried about. It will be a year, probably at least, till me girlfriend and I move. We aren’t just visiting. I’m planning on getting my Master’s degree. My plan is to be a permanent resident. The degree plan lasts a year, so be the time the actual “leave” happens, my Student Visa will have expired.

I’m just worried that they will give me the boot. As I will be an immigrant. I have heard that it will become more difficult to obtain work permits, which what worries me.

I understand that information is scarce now, as their is really no precedent to provide information on.

I just can’t help but worry, mainly because of the lack of information. Moving to another country is something that takes a lot of planning, resources, and time. Since everyone keeps saying, we won’t know what is going to happen till it actually does, it scares me since I can’t plan for that contingency.

I mean, I feel my fear is justified. The consequences are getting deported to a Clinton or Trump United States.....................
 
There's a specific condition to the phrase that allows it to functionally make sense. Even then, it's a general sentiment--an ideal, a goal, an objective. Something to be aspired toward which technically is nigh impossible to achieve, but which drives society ever forward toward such a future anyway, and which warns it away from terrible courses.
Fair enough, but without knowing what those conditions are it really just becomes one of those "Use when convenient" sort of arguments.
Though I really am just picking at straws here, from seeing this quote get miss used so often.
 
Any new opinions on the Brexit issue after everything that's since happened in light of the vote? From the economy (continually) sinking, to the proposals and claims made by the Brexit campaign being lies, to even the Leave Campaign's leaders being absent from today's parliamentary meeting?

As far as the EU goes, I completely agree with Grumpy's sentiments in regards to how it's run and how reform with regards to that is desperately needed. It absolutely does.

But at what cost? Because at the rate the UK is heading itself into, from a disunited and devolved Britain to a complete shambles of an economical system (sorry Winter, but I really can't see how the NHS will benefit or prosper from this, even despite absolutely agreeing that it does need all the support it can get... a Tory government no matter what decision from this referendum would be would ever actually seek to benefit or improve it)... I just can't see it being worth it?
 
The economy isn't sinking, the pound has already gone back up and George Osborne already gave a speech this morning informing the public that there are contingencies in place to mitigate impact on the economy. Even Mervyn King, the ex bank of England chief commented that people have nothing to worry about. All it is, is left over scaremongering from the initial campaigns from Leave / Remain. Of course there will be initial drops due to the effect on trading, but with new trade deals with countries outside of the EU the current drop will have such little impact in the grander scheme of things. Not to mention we're waiting for a new PM to step in and deliver a plan for us. People need to stop moaning about what is, and start looking for what could be if people could get off their butts and work together, instead of continually pointing fingers or worrying about the penny in their pocket.
 
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@Pachamac - I find it strange that I'm more comfortable having a civil chit-chat with you, a chap on the internet, than I am with some of mine bosom chums on Facebook or other social media platforms. All the same, nice to be able to talk about it. It's like Reverse Great Internet Fuckwad Theory, or something.

As for where I stand on Brexit now, though? Still no regrets.

I didn't think voting to Leave was the easy option. Few things worthwhile are ever easy. I voted to get out of the EU because I think, long-term, it's the right thing to do. Initial hits to our economy were inevitable, and honestly? They're probably more the result of the rampant fear-mongering put out by some aspects of the Remain campaign that were essentially prophesising a second Dark Age should we tell Brussels to suck it. I'm not even gonna pretend to grasp the complexities of economics and global markets, but markets are ultimately directed by people. We created the narrative of Brexit being bad for the economy, and it was influential enough that it's essentially become self-fulfilling.

As for the lies and stuff? That £350 million figure was widely known to be bullshit even before the Referendum took place. John Oliver was talking about it in that piece linked earlier (which was funny as shit, even if I didn't agree with it). 17 million people didn't vote to leave because they were hoodwinked, lied to or deceived. Don't believe anyone claiming otherwise.

The implosion we're seeing in the Labour party is a sign of things to come. We've got Jeremy Corbyn, outsider politician brought into power of the back of massive public support, currently in a war with the careerist shitpokes of his party trying to oust him and return to the status-quo.

Yet he's fucking winning.

If the Brexit helps to make this country more democratic, and our government more accountable to the people it's supposed to represent? I'm willing to accept the price of some short-to-mid-term economic instability.
 
You know in regards to preserving NHS specifically, voting leave was perhaps the worst thing UK could have done.

At least if we're going by the reasoning provided earlier in this thread about immigrants from Germany draining it's resources, and this is for two main reasons.

1. While in the EU, the UK's effective border isn't even at their own Borders, but stationed somewhere in France with French border control helping them. Leaving the EU has a good chance of ending that arrangement, and forcing UK to pull back to their own Island border, allowing immigrants to not only get farther but once their found UK now needs to front the cost for sending them back (and remember, UK was already one of the exceptions to Schengen that was causing Germany's open invite to send so many immigrants elsewhere).

2. Even in the chance that Schengen was resulting in a ton of Immigrants popping up in the UK and then using their NHS, being a EU nation the EU would have to take responsibility and send in aid. Now if the amount of immigrants using the NHS increases (which is fairly likely given #1) the EU isn't obligated to do anything.

As for the rest of Brexit? I'm taking a mainly "Wait and see" approach, but the NHS motivation specifically was insanely flawed.
 
What does NHS stand for?

Is it healthcare?
 
This will be interesting to watch, but I'm more than certain the UK will be just fine without the European Union.

In the short term, though? It looks like it's hitting the Canadian Dollar, believe it or not.

<snippet>
Globe and Mail said:
The Canadian dollar tumbled again today, hit by the market fallout from the Brexit referendum.

It’s the combination of lower oil prices, a stronger U.S. dollar and weak stocks amid concerns over global economic growth that are doing the loonie in, said Shaun Osborne, Bank of Nova Scotia’s chief foreign exchange strategist.

“That’s kryptonite for the Canadian dollar,” Mr. Osborne said, though he noted that the loonie is holding up better than some other currencies.
</snippet>

It doesn't look like the loonie went down too much, as it was trading for 76.5 cents by the end of today. A lot of articles I've read on this seem to be overstating the present impact, as that isn't too far off from what it was trading at prior to the referendum vote. However, as the article states, there are other factors at play here. It is those factors that could have a more long term effect on the loonie.
 
All this talk about immigration......I’m going to be one of those immigrants.......
 
All this talk about immigration......I’m going to be one of those immigrants.......

And?

If you're there with the proper papers, behave yourself, and don't do anything Deportation worthy, you should be fine. It's not like they're going to kick you out of the country. I'm assuming you're an American Citizen, so if you have everything required, you have an almost 0% chance of being deported.
 
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