Black Lives Matter

Discussion in 'THREAD ARCHIVES' started by SacredWarrior, Aug 15, 2015.

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  1. This has been picking at my mind like a tick picks at an animal so I might as well make this thread to see what you sexy people think. I'm pretty sure everyone knows about the Black Lives Matter movement right? It was started a year ago after the death of Michael Brown in Ferguson, Missouri. I have a neutral opinion about that case honestly.

    I'm not a big, overzealous supporter of the movement (I don't condone cop killing and I respect GOOD cops and love them) but I do understand why it exists and such. However I don't understand why the ignorant All Lives Matter people exist. Apparently some people tend to think that BLM only exists for blacks when they've stood up for all races who are subject to police brutality (Zachary Hammond is a prime example) and there are many whites, Latinos, and Asians who are a part of the movement. Some idiots think BLM only exists for police brutality when it doesn't. The fact that they protested after the shooting in Charleston says that.

    One thing I'm REALLY getting sick of are people who are trying to use black on black crime as justification for their racism against BLM. I'm not denying that it exists and is a huge problem but why is black on black crime always talked about and not white on white crime? I don't recall blacks shooting up churches, movie theaters, and schools which has been happening quite a bit lately. Last time I checked, most serial killers are Caucasian males. Why isn't anyone speaking out about that? Stop acting like your race is perfect cause it ISN'T.

    Sometimes I wonder if there are more BLM people or ALM people.

    Let's get the discussion popping. What are your thoughts on everything that's been happening surrounding police brutality and what do you think of BLM?
  2. It won't take long for this to happen, considering it happens everywhere else.


    So instead of that I'll just be as plain Jane clear as I can be: Divisive identity politics only serves to distract us and section us off into smaller groups that can be herded around like cattle by narcissists and the overly rich. If BLM matters to you, great, it's not really a concern of mine, because I don't feel I need BLM to see the terribly high death rate of blacks and want something done about it. I'm not part of nor particularly support BLM, but I'm not the enemies of those who do. Yet, you will find within the BLM movement an "us versus them" mentality.

    I'm part of the old left. My fight is against the system that creates disempowered minorities, segregation by culture or law, and the impoverished. My fight is against the people who have the power to keep things the way they are, with an expanding poverty sector of society. That's my fight. Coincidentally, helping the poor will help minorities more-so than "my people", though I've never had a particularly strong identity towards my ethnicity. I believe in the rights of every individual to have the best shot at life possible, and that can't be achieved by ignoring those people who are born poor, live poor, and die poor--because the system will not allow them a chance to climb up. That includes blacks living in post-segregation black-dominated neighbourhoods, who through a combination of factors (that I won't fight over here), are getting completely fucked out of a real chance at life.

    In essence: I'm not part of BLM, but I'm not an enemy or opponent of BLM. Its ideological objectives seem just fine to me, though I do object to some of its methods. I'm concerned it's being poisoned and rotted out by the same extremist narcissists who took the Occupy Wall Street movement from being relatable to some absurdly extremist identity politics movement that inevitable imploded in on itself via oppression olympics.

    Getting divisive over this just distracts us from the real target: Wrecking the laws that hurt the poor and disenfranchised the most--which, naturally, includes black people. Duh.

    I just don't think any real progress is made by attacking one of the only people who may actually give enough of a shit about you to listen and respond, who has a shot at the president's seat. Democracy is about compromise--you don't build a house by throwing a pile of materials there and screaming at it to be a thing, you build it one step at a time, one floor board at a time. You achieve change progressively, not through absurd extremism, and not by making enemies out of those who you can talk to, who will listen to you, and who will ultimately fight for causes that will help you.

    We're not enemies. We shouldn't be enemies. It's foolish for us to fight when the ultra rich are busy flooding the GOP campaign with enough money to flood every media venue with Trump advertisements. Because no matter how you might feel about Bernie Sanders, Donald Trump is far, far, far worse. If the narcissists within BLM are going to throw a divisive identity politics scheme that has never worked once at anything, please throw it at the guy who thinks you're all a bunch of drug-using Mexican rapists. Because he disgusts me too.

    As for all the reasonable people within BLM, I'm sure we can agree that we share a similar target. Even if our ultimate objectives differ somewhat, right now, we're not enemies. We can't be. If we divide ourselves up piecemeal, we'll defeat ourselves before the battle even really starts, and that's what concerns me. We should be allies, we should find compromise, exercise democracy, and try to find a way to address as many issues from every group and voice as possible.

    Remember: Feminism achieved change not through absolute unity of thought--there are multiple, differing versions of feminism that each fight for a different cause--but by uniting when the cause was important enough to set aside their differences and achieve a greater goal. Through that, we got some of the most important human rights improvements of the modern age. We can do it again, if we just stop tearing each other apart for not being the same. I'm not part of BLM, and I will probably never be part of BLM, but that doesn't automatically make me an enemy.

    It's not "BLM versus ALM". It's not black vs white. We live in a world of grey, and taking the identity politics "us vs them" mentality will only fuck us all over. We're not enemies. I am not your enemy. Beyond that, I have little else to say. After all, I'm not going to tell you what to think or how to feel. That's on you.

    I just hope you'll see that in spite of our differences, we fight for the same cause. Even if our ultimate objectives differ, we can compromise.
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  3. Oh good. You labelled this a "Debate" so we can descend into yelling and veiled insults right away.

    Much like feminism, if the movement is about all people, I wonder why they don't just go with the change to include everyone. I've additionally read a few things about the "BLM" movement being somewhat racist toward white people. And much like Feminism, it's likely a few vocal and very narrow minded individuals spoiling it for the rest.

    I also think that we're being distracted, but that's probably something else.
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  4. I didn't know whether to turn this thread into a discussion or a debate :(
  5. Ah don't worry about it. This thread should go alright until certain people arrive. :ferret:
  6. Relevant:

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  7. They seem to be annoying people more than they are helping. You see what they did with Bernie Sanders? The guy supports them, but hey, doesn't matter! Let's scream at him and interrupt his speech! That's the kind of thing that drives potential supporters away, because they're probably afraid you'll start to scream at them, too.

    So I don't generally support any race-based groups, because there's always going to be that tiny side of racism to them. Whether it's in the minority or not, when people form groups of people who share their views or skin color, they're going to be more likely to attack people not like them. Human pack mentality at its finest. They feel safe in doing so, because nobody can fight back without the fear being attacked by the group, or labeled a racist. Something like that.

    Besides, most races think they're perfect or have something better than somebody, and it's never been limited to caucasians. TL;DR, I support freedom and equal access to prosperity and safety for everyone. Let's break out the cider.

    ps. I hope you're ready for the imminent ragesplosion that is sure to accompany any debate on Iwaku. Good luck.
    #7 Dipper, Aug 15, 2015
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2015
  8. I actually used to be one of those people who were like "stfu, all lives matter." That was before I actually looked into things and realized what was up. See, the problem BLM faces is very similar to what a lot of other modern movements face: the name was derived from a hashtag, which of necessity must be extremely brief. What happens is you have people angrily (justifiably so, mind you) shouting "black lives matter" both in speech and text, and then when others say "uhh, but all lives matter?" they're told to shut up and maybe even called racist. The reason this happens so often is that the message is truncated and people don't bother to read further into it than the surface, because people are almost universally dumb about some things. They see the message of "black lives matter" and dissenters being told to shut up as a black superiority thing, as if the people are saying black lives matter more than other lives. The problem is that these protesters and activists and such are not accurately conveying their actual intended message: black lives matter just as much as other lives but they are not currently being treated as such. It's a matter of misunderstanding on both sides, with the listeners not understanding the intended message and the messengers just yelling louder instead of trying to clear things up. That's the sort of thing that can happen with leaderless activism unfortunately, because for every person you have out there trying to clear up the message you've got a dozen people just carrying on with the same old thing.

    That said, I do agree with what they're actually trying to say. From what we can tell there are disproportionate rates of police violence against minorities, and that needs to change. That "from what we can tell" part is really key: our police departments are garbage at keeping track of statistics and they're not required to report those statistics to anyone. That's the first major step of getting things changed, because we need to be able to see where there are problems and where things are just fine, then do work to make the former places more like the latter ones. The calls for broad sweeping reforms of all police everywhere are unrealistic and untenable. It needs to be a targeted thing, starting with the places with the most racial inequality in police actions then moving up to lesser problem areas, but we can't do that without the damned numbers first. The whole justice system needs a lot of work to be honest, not just police, but they're a good place to start.
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  9. Hey I'm not a huge supporter of the movement remember? I get why it's here and trust me I know of the dumbasses that exist within it which is why I'm not involved in the movement. Also those women that attacked Bernie Sanders weren't in the BLM movement. They were conservatives and Sarah Palin supporters who were pretending to be involved. Unfortunately some people aren't willing to talk and sing Kumbaya. They'd much rather resort to violence.

    It's a good thing that it's mostly millennials and younger who are the peaceful ones while the problematic people are the older, middle-aged ones.
  10. Indeed. Which is why I've nothing against you and entertained the topic. You wanted to talk about it, earnestly, so I'm willing to give a shot. That's how respect and communication works, non? :ferret:

    Agreed. It's a shame there are idiotic people running about who would rather throw mud at each other than work together for a greater universal good, but... Alas. Anger and self-righteousness appear more prevalent than calm and compassion right now.
  11. The women weren't in the BLM movement. It was investigated and turns out they were Republicans and Sarah Palin supporters. BLM even apologized to Bernie on Twitter. Yeah I get what you're saying and the human pack mentality pisses me off which is why I don't involve myself in the movement.
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  12. At least our generation is trying to do that. Key word being try of course.
  13. Ah, really? Yikes. Well I guess whatever they were trying to accomplish worked, because it made a lot of people mad.

    Welcome to the problems of humanity; we form groups and get into fights with everyone else.
  14. Why those facts weren't reported in the news is beyond me -_- Oh wait I know why -.-
  15. Aye. We've got a long way to go, but we have to try.

    Anyway, good luck to your thread. I hope it isn't lit aflame for your sake. :ferret:

    On topic, I kind of am noticing a shift towards people being antagonized by the whole BLM thing, and while I understand they're trying to get their voice out there, swarming presidential candidate debate stops to chant "Black Lives Matter!" is disruptive and not the forum for it. I promise you, anyone watching isn't thinking that they're fighting the good fight, they're thinking that they're being abrasive and inconsiderate. Doing that to Bernie Sanders of all people just shows ignorance on their part; the man marched with Martin Luther King Jr. Like Brovo touched on, it's turning into an Occupy Wall Street thing where sooner rather than later, people are going to start seeing them as a joke and not give a shit about the message even if they generally agree with what's being said.

    What they're doing isn't an effective form of protest, hell, back in January they swarmed a 100 year old US Navy veteran Dario Raschio's medal ceremony and completely disrupted it in the most rude and disrespectful manner imaginable. Point is, do shit like that and you aren't making friends. No matter how many times you start yelling "black lives matter", "I can't breathe", and "hands up don't shoot", you're going to be antagonizing everyone, including people who agree with the general message. There's a time and place for protest, and disrupting shit that has nothing to do with your cause is just going to make enemies and turn your slogans into cruel jests of mockery.

    For myself, I agree that there needs to be a hard look at American police agencies and outside investigations done on these suspect black murder cases to get to the truth and uphold justice. A hugely disproportionate number of blacks are arrested and profiled, and lot of that has to do with institutionalized racism. Covering up when a cop murders an innocent black person makes anyone involved guilty of obstructing justice, but we can't lose sight of the fact that not every instance is a falsification and the cop's actions are justified. Turning into a lynch mob isn't helping anyone.

    I'm just happy I live up here in Canada. It's not perfect and we have a long way to go with native rights and getting people to stop being racist fuckwits towards Muslims, but I have never seen the racial problems going on in the US up here.
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  17. My issue with BLM is honestly just two things.

    1) The Name

    It's partly the same reason I don't call myself a feminist or a MRA. I don't like joining groups or movements that try to elevate one demographic of people of deserving help more than the other.
    Now this isn't actually a big issue with me, if someone tells me their a feminist or MRA I'm hardly going to cause an argument over that. If we're going to clash heads it will be over beliefs and ideologies, not over something as simple as names.

    +I get it why it is called what it is. It's a hashtag and needs to be short, and it's in reaction to black killings so logically that's where they draw attention.
    But still, I don't like associating with movements where the very name starts to divide people.

    2) The Racist Minority

    Basically the same kind of poison that brought us 3rd wave feminism.
    The people who go and ruin the movement for the rest by saying "You're white so you're opinion doesn't count!".
    No I'm sorry, I don't condone racism, and no it's not better because they're white.

    Which one again, it's a minority.
    But if the majority's response to this is to shame the white people who address this, rather than get a leash on the bad seeds saying this hateful trash?
    Then no, I'm not joining the movement.

    I get people can't control everything said, like with Gamergate.
    But in a case like Gamegate that movement actually went out and did damage control, if someone was using the hashtag in a hateful manner other's would step in and handle it.
    But from what I've seen BLM would rather shelter those people and then throw the blame on those being attacked by this minority.
    #17 Gwazi Magnum, Aug 17, 2015
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2015
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  18. I thought this was going to be a really easy debate. Do black lives matter? Yes/No?. We would've had an (almost) unanimous decision.

    Just to ensure I get quoted, isn't the "a time and a place, you rude dicks!" argument in racism equivalent to the "ask nicely, young lady!" argument in feminism?

    A lot of valid feminist arguments are dismissed solely because the speaker happens to show a slither of emotion and doesn't buy into the gentleman's club paradigm of calm, manly debate (which is a splendid paradigm, as Iwaku demonstrates).

    Likewise, preaching to BLM about where and when they should do Black Stuff is just forcing them to conform to a system they think is broken.

    Of course, many of you will retort that rational democratic debate in its proper context is race and gender agnostic.

    ....... But is it? o_o

    How much of history has been shaped by people doing something in defiance of the status quo who simply say "not now"?
  19. I'm reminded of the absolute masterclass in polemic that is the Letter from Birmingham Jail by Martin Luther King Jr., addressing a group of white Christian religious figures who were urging him to show restraint and "patience" (ie. to know his place).
  20. "I hope you are able to see the distinction I am trying to point out. In no sense do I advocate evading or defying the law, as would the rabid segregationist. That would lead to anarchy. One who breaks an unjust law must do so openly, lovingly, and with a willingness to accept the penalty. I submit that an individual who breaks a law that conscience tells him is unjust, and who willingly accepts the penalty of imprisonment in order to arouse the conscience of the community over its injustice, is in reality expressing the highest respect for law." -Martin Luther King Jr.

    These two passages from the letter I feel most strongly reflects the words of a wise and peaceful man.

    "We have waited for more than 340 years for our constitutional and God given rights. The nations of Asia and Africa are moving with jetlike speed toward gaining political independence, but we still creep at horse and buggy pace toward gaining a cup of coffee at a lunch counter. Perhaps it is easy for those who have never felt the stinging darts of segregation to say, "Wait." But when you have seen vicious mobs lynch your mothers and fathers at will and drown your sisters and brothers at whim; when you have seen hate filled policemen curse, kick and even kill your black brothers and sisters; when you see the vast majority of your twenty million Negro brothers smothering in an airtight cage of poverty in the midst of an affluent society; when you suddenly find your tongue twisted and your speech stammering as you seek to explain to your six year old daughter why she can't go to the public amusement park that has just been advertised on television, and see tears welling up in her eyes when she is told that Funtown is closed to colored children, and see ominous clouds of inferiority beginning to form in her little mental sky, and see her beginning to distort her personality by developing an unconscious bitterness toward white people; when you have to concoct an answer for a five year old son who is asking: "Daddy, why do white people treat colored people so mean?"; when you take a cross county drive and find it necessary to sleep night after night in the uncomfortable corners of your automobile because no motel will accept you; when you are humiliated day in and day out by nagging signs reading "white" and "colored"; when your first name becomes "nigger," your middle name becomes "boy" (however old you are) and your last name becomes "John," and your wife and mother are never given the respected title "Mrs."; when you are harried by day and haunted by night by the fact that you are a Negro, living constantly at tiptoe stance, never quite knowing what to expect next, and are plagued with inner fears and outer resentments; when you are forever fighting a degenerating sense of "nobodiness"--then you will understand why we find it difficult to wait. There comes a time when the cup of endurance runs over, and men are no longer willing to be plunged into the abyss of despair. I hope, sirs, you can understand our legitimate and unavoidable impatience. You express a great deal of anxiety over our willingness to break laws. This is certainly a legitimate concern. Since we so diligently urge people to obey the Supreme Court's decision of 1954 outlawing segregation in the public schools, at first glance it may seem rather paradoxical for us consciously to break laws. One may well ask: "How can you advocate breaking some laws and obeying others?" The answer lies in the fact that there are two types of laws: just and unjust. I would be the first to advocate obeying just laws. One has not only a legal but a moral responsibility to obey just laws. Conversely, one has a moral responsibility to disobey unjust laws. I would agree with St. Augustine that "an unjust law is no law at all.""


    "You speak of our activity in Birmingham as extreme. At first I was rather disappointed that fellow clergymen would see my nonviolent efforts as those of an extremist. I began thinking about the fact that I stand in the middle of two opposing forces in the Negro community. One is a force of complacency, made up in part of Negroes who, as a result of long years of oppression, are so drained of self respect and a sense of "somebodiness" that they have adjusted to segregation; and in part of a few middle-class Negroes who, because of a degree of academic and economic security and because in some ways they profit by segregation, have become insensitive to the problems of the masses. The other force is one of bitterness and hatred, and it comes perilously close to advocating violence. It is expressed in the various black nationalist groups that are springing up across the nation, the largest and best known being Elijah Muhammad's Muslim movement. Nourished by the Negro's frustration over the continued existence of racial discrimination, this movement is made up of people who have lost faith in America, who have absolutely repudiated Christianity, and who have concluded that the white man is an incorrigible "devil."

    I have tried to stand between these two forces, saying that we need emulate neither the "do nothingism" of the complacent nor the hatred and despair of the black nationalist. For there is the more excellent way of love and nonviolent protest. I am grateful to God that, through the influence of the Negro church, the way of nonviolence became an integral part of our struggle. If this philosophy had not emerged, by now many streets of the South would, I am convinced, be flowing with blood. And I am further convinced that if our white brothers dismiss as "rabble rousers" and "outside agitators" those of us who employ nonviolent direct action, and if they refuse to support our nonviolent efforts, millions of Negroes will, out of frustration and despair, seek solace and security in black nationalist ideologies--a development that would inevitably lead to a frightening racial nightmare."

    We're not enemies. Injustices should be resolved. Whether it take non-violent protesting or a surge of democratic interest or a spirited force within the judicial system, it cannot stand forever.
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