Anita Sarkeesian

[Tegan]

This is so last year.

 

[Diana]

Sure, start up the thread and we will talk Feminism.

"you are not as educated and smart as you think you are."

If you are going to go for personal insults, I'd prefer you address me directly in them.

Ad Hominems are Logical Fallacies, by the way.

I am not trying to be insulting, I am pointing out a logical common sense fact. You don't condemn all of Christianity just because Westboro Church peeps go around protesting stupid shit in the news all the time. You don't condemn all gamers just because a bunch of assholes are elitist about what constitutes being a gamer and what doesn't. So why on earth would you condemn a movement of social equality like feminism because of IT'S extremists? o__o That's not educated.

 

[Kakumei]

I am not trying to be insulting, I am pointing out a logical common sense fact. You don't condemn all of Christianity just because Westboro Church peeps go around protesting stupid shit in the news all the time. You don't condemn all gamers just because a bunch of assholes are elitist about what constitutes being a gamer and what doesn't. So why on earth would you condemn a movement of social equality like feminism because of IT'S extremists? o__o That's not educated.

Thats pretty easy, feminism as a whole has prove itself time and time again to be a lock step movement.

Feminism is a movement. Christianity is a religion and gamers play games. They certainly aren't movements in the sense that feminism is.

 

[Tegan]

Hmmm, debate this with logic, or realize that this thread will not only soon be locked, there is nothing to debates since it is JUST a thread with Anita Sarkeesian in the title with no arguments presented in the initial post. It's just a circle jerk for sad, sad people who won't change their minds, no matter how much reasoning is presented to them.

Fuck it, spamming gifs and videos then. Because I wanna get off too.

 

[Saito Hajime]

Call them out in the debate and debate, or don't.

Kay

And you missed the point completely. Feminism is only concerned about its own narrative. They want to impose it as a gaming industry standard. You cannot be a gamer and hate all gaming that doesn't match up with your own ideology in lock step.

No true Scotsman, suggesting you can't be a true gamer because of something you want.

Strawman, inventing an exaggerated argument where they hate ALL gaming that doesn't match their ideology, or claiming that the reason they want COD gone is because of their ideology alone.

Why is it that someone can't be a gamer and desire some degree of change at the same time? Is there a gamer code that dictates what we can and can't think about gaming?

 

[Decimate]

I think some people need to re-educate themselves on what REAL ACTUAL FEMINISM is, and not buy in to the hype of crazy extremists. o__o

Because if you are going to sit there and talk about the beautiful world of gaming, like there's not some fucked up extremists douchebags out there that makes the rest of the gaming look shitty, and then condemn feminism for their stupid collection extremist dingbats, you are not as educated and smart as you think you are. >:[

Sure, start up the thread and we will talk Feminism.

"you are not as educated and smart as you think you are."

If you are going to go for personal insults, I'd prefer you address me directly in them.

Ad Hominems are Logical Fallacies, by the way.

 

[Diana]

That still doesn't justify judgement feminism by it's extremists. o__o Judging ANYTHING by it's extremists is not the way to make intelligent and informed decisions about something.

 

[Shadon Xarian]

REAL ACTUAL FEMINISM

Sadly, when was the last time you heard of real actual feminist other than someone saying they exist? And when have you heard of an actual feminist movement happening to make things better? Me personally? 5 or so years ago.

These extremist hijacked the feminist name. Took over the name feminism, and poisoned it. Allot of femenist went into new groups like humanist so they can actually get things done and not have fighting inbetween, other feminist just sit around all day being like "That's not what feminism is, read a dictionary" while clinging to a dying name, yet also not doing anything to fix it.

I've actually tried working with feminist to try and perhaps fix their name. There were lots of options that were discussed, but nobody wanted to take any action. And that's the problem I see, action isn't being taken by the good ones, only the bad ones. And then the good ones (I assume accidentally) protect the extremist.

BUT not all hope is lost. There's a new group these extremist seem to be calling themselves. Social justice warriors (SJW) if they continue on the path of going to them, then perhaps in the near future, the feminist name can be repaired.

 

[Kakumei]

No true Scotsman, suggesting you can't be a true gamer because of something you want.

Misrepresentation of my point.

My point is that feminists can't just be happy with ignoring the games that they don't like, but those games should go away because of that opinion.

Strawman, inventing an exaggerated argument where they hate ALL gaming that doesn't match their ideology, or claiming that the reason they want COD gone is because of their ideology alone.

Because feminism doesn't want to completely change game industry to match its ideology, regardless of the fact that it has time and time again in debate after debate on youtube, done this very thing.

I would once again defer you to Milo Yiannopoulos and Sargon of Akkad.

 

[Kakumei]

That still doesn't justify judgement feminism by it's extremists. o__o Judging ANYTHING by it's extremists is not the way to make intelligent and informed decisions about something.

Fine, I accept this premise.

Lets look at the leader of the movement of feminism in gaming and go by that.

Anita Sarkeesian... Huh. Looks like I'm still perfectly on point.

 

[Diana]

Sadly, when was the last time you heard of real actual feminist other than someone saying they exist? And when have you heard of an actual feminist movement happening to make things better? Me personally? 5 or so years ago.

You can say the exact same thing about Christianity, and about Gamers, and about pretty much anything under the sun. D: The point I am trying to get at, is that people should educate themselves before they start making generalized assumptions and accusations towards a grouping of people just by the bad press that's going on.

Lets look at the leader of the movement of feminism in gaming and go by that.

Anita Sarkeesian... Huh. Looks like I'm still perfectly on point.

You are making the assumption she is the leader of the movement, and not just some whackadoodle lady that got a lot of attention. Whackadoodles are always getting face time and making things look bad for their cause. The Donald Trump for presidency fiasco is a good example. This still does not mean you base your entire opinion on those extremists.

 

[Yatagarasu]

I did a speech about extreme feminism one day for school. Obviously, I started talking about Sarkeesian in my speech.

IMO, she needs to seriously learn how to take criticism and how to counter-argue. She seems to always bitching about how people are 'attacking' or 'harassing' her when all they did, was presenting counter arguments...

So...if she wants people to take her seriously, she has to learn how to hold her own ground and stop blocking people on twitter/youtube/whatever for disagreeing and closing discussions.

Also, she does (if she even is the one that doing it) very weak research. I cringed watching her talk about Bayonetta. Clearly didn't play through the entire storyline.

 

[Saito Hajime]

Misrepresentation of my point.

My point is that feminists can't just be happy with ignoring the games that they don't like, but those games should go away because of that opinion.

But again, you're suggesting someone can't be a true gamer because they want something in gaming to go away.

Not to mention you were addressing Chrononaut, who said they didn't like COD, and not a nebulous mass that represents all feminists everywhere.

Because feminism doesn't want to completely change game industry to match its ideology, regardless of the fact that it has time and time again in debate after debate on youtube, done this very thing.

I would once again defer you to Milo Yiannopoulos and Sargon of Akkad.

If I must look at someone else's argument to know yours, could you at least point me to where I might find these arguments?

 

[Icystorm]

*after a few minutes of reading*

 

[Kakumei]

You are making the assumption she is the leader of the movement, and not just some whackadoodle lady that got a lot of attention. Whackadoodles are always getting face time and making things look bad for their cause. The Donald Trump for presidency fiasco is a good example. This still does not mean you base your entire opinion on those extremists.

Feminists attacking gamers was almost non-existent before Anita Sarkeesian. Of course, she would have remained a nobody if gamers didn't get all hot and bothered and go after her the way they did and started giving her way more attention than she deserves.

Buuuuuut.... She took the platform that she was given and ran away with it. She is the one going to debates and debating this topic. She is the one pushing for legislation. I haven't seen a single feminist call out Anita and tell her to fuck off or any kind of feminist resistance against her and what she is saying at all.

If you judge Christianity, you look at the example and the face of it, which would be Jesus.

If you looked at Islam, you look at 6 year old marrying Mohammad.

If you are looking at a movement, you have to look to the example. In the case of feminism in gaming (specifically) you look to Anita.

 

[SacredWarrior]

UGH Here I go entering the conversation. Seriously Anita is one of those women who gives feminism a bad name and women in general a bad name. She doesn't even play the games she criticizes and I'm pretty sure she got her footage from various LP's on YouTube. She just wants attention and is too easily offended by the smallest shit. Plus her logic has more holes than Swiss cheese and she doesn't even focus on ACTUAL offensive presentation of video game women (looking at you Dead or Alive and yes I am a fan of that franchise). She also says there aren't many strong women in gaming. BULLSHIT!!!!

However I will say this. At the end of the day, she's still a person. She doesn't deserve death/rape threats and anyone who's actually doing that sick shit is only proving her point. If you're gonna criticize her, do it in a calm, rational manner and be CIVIL about it!

While I do think there is a slight issue with women in gaming especially women of color (mostly in terms of representation instead of sexuality), there's a reason why more and more developers are giving gamers the ability to make their own characters. Games like Mass Effect, Saints Row, and the Elder Scrolls series prove this.

I mostly agree with Diana since she's right about having an opinion on an entire movement or kind of person just because of extremists. They're in the minority but they're VERY LOUD and the media eats them up which is why they get so much attention. Just ignore her and she'll go away.

 

[Kakumei]

But again, you're suggesting someone can't be a true gamer because they want something in gaming to go away.

CoD is one of those titles that pretty much defines gaming. Its silly not to let people have what they like.

Not to mention you were addressing Chrononaut, who said they didn't like COD, and not a nebulous mass that represents all feminists everywhere.

Yup. I used what she said as an example to address what seems to be the feminist mindset.

If I must look at someone else's argument to know yours, could you at least point me to where I might find these arguments?

My argument is that the charges against gaming by feminist is a false premise.

According to Geek Feminism Wiki:

[spoili]"Women are believed to be underrepresented by numbers in many types of geeky entertainment, including roleplaying and computer gaming. This page covers primarily computer gaming communities online."

-http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Gaming[/spoili]

Which also seems to be a shared argument on most of the sites that google brought up when searching "Feminism in Gaming" and that of Anita Sarkeesian as well.

EDIT:

milo yiannopoulos feminism - YouTube

sargon of akkad feminism - YouTube

 

[SacredWarrior]

Feminists attacking gamers was almost non-existent before Anita Sarkeesian. Of course, she would have remained a nobody if gamers didn't get all hot and bothered and go after her the way they did and started giving her way more attention than she deserves.

Buuuuuut.... She took the platform that she was given and ran away with it. She is the one going to debates and debating this topic. She is the one pushing for legislation. I haven't seen a single feminist call out Anita and tell her to fuck off or any kind of feminist resistance against her and what she is saying at all.

If you judge Christianity, you look at the example and the face of it, which would be Jesus.

If you looked at Islam, you look at 6 year old marrying Mohammad.

If you are looking at a movement, you have to look to the example. In the case of feminism in gaming (specifically) you look to Anita.

You must not be on YouTube that much then because I've seen many women call out Anita and say how dumb she's being. And guess what? Some of them were FEMINISTS. *gasps* How shocking is that?!!

 

[Diana]

Yeeeaaaah, no. You need to acquire more information than judging something by face value or by the most obvious and easy to see example. O_O Otherwise, you have not learned enough to make an educated opinion, and can't really have an informed conversation.




So I officially concede and bow out! -Shoves @Grumpy back in the thread and runs away!-

 

[Windsong]

Yeeeaaaah, no. You need to acquire more information than judging something by face value or by the most obvious and easy to see example. O_O Otherwise, you have not learned enough to make an educated opinion, and can't really have an informed conversation.

Sounds like most of the US voting base.