Abortion: Is it Absolutely Despicable, or are there Situations Wherein It's Okay?

That's actually an extremely good question, Asmodeus (and on a completely unrelated side note, I am very fond of your username).

I had to think about this one for a minute or two. To begin with, I think Jehovah's Witnesses are crazy, but that's my opinion on most religious folks whose religions impose potentially harmful restrictions on behavior or lifestyle.

Personally, however, where I find I draw the line is when the fetus leaves the body. For better or worse, the woman's choice must be the final say in the matter, because once you start forcing women to do something they don't want with their bodies in one area, it can create a problematic attitude towards the subject in general. Until the child is born, the mother's choices have to reign supreme. I may not like what a woman chooses to do. In fact, I may feel horrible about it. However, preventing her from doing what she wishes crosses an ethical boundary I am not comfortable with.

However, the question of caring for an infant or toddler once out of the womb needn't necessarily be in her hands. At that point, the child is its own entity completely, with its own human rights. In any case, the child doesn't directly affect her health in the way that a fetus does.

However, your example of Jehovah's Witnesses is a whole other grey area because it starts into the whole debate on religious freedom and earthly laws. I can't say I know what would be best in that situation. I must admit that my gut sense of right and wrong inclines me to advocate forcibly treating the child under such circumstances, but again I don't know whether that's the right or wrong answer because it's imposing my own worldview onto someone else.
 
As much as I find this thread uncomfortable I feel the need to post this. It is not a reflection of my views, I'm posting it here because this is something I didn't realize about our legal system until my boyfriend showed it to me. (Legal system being America.) I also don't mean to discredit what everyone else is saying, this is all of your personal opinion, and I'll respect that. If there is anything out there to refute something like this, I am not aware so please don't flame me for my ignorance. This is merely what I found out.

http://shine.yahoo.com/dailyshot/daily-shot-ali-discusses-terrifying-truth-rape-181100098.html
 
In response to Asmo's questioning earlier about those who are disabled, I think that parenthood should also come with the responsibility of checking your family history and genetics [I am fairly sure there are tests available for some genetic mutation screenings]. In my science class once, we were given a question of: If you found out you had a child that had [insert disease here], would you choose to risk the chance of it having said mutation, or null conception in general?

I believe I answered that I would not have a child in the event that I found out my child may have potential for a disease. I realize that a lot of things you can't find out until after the baby is born, but if you have that ability, why risk it, instead of conceiving, and going the route of abortion anyway?

During my senior project, a lady in my class was doing her project on child healthcare. One component of her argument was the same analogy as applied earlier. If people can have a liscence to drive a car, why not have a liscence to care for a baby?
To some extent I agree but I also disagree because I feel that it would be too overbearing on my rights as a potential mother. That also being said, who decides what is "fit" for parenthood?
 
Abortions were being performed by medical practitioners way before it became 'a thing' that everyone had an opinion about. Personally, I blame religious groups for throwing their philosophical spiel at the issue. In part due to that catastrophe, women were forced to undergo risky abortions. I mean, to me, it's like the gay marriage thing. If you're against gay marriage then don't get married to a gay person. If you're against abortion then don't have one. Ta-frickin-dah. Just went and resolved the whole damn problem.
 
My position is very vague on this, for the simple reason that I have never had an unwanted child or even a traumatizing sexual experience. I could never imagine what it would be like to be pregnant with an unwanted child, and I don't think I can really judge the choice and its right to be made without having experienced that situation personally.

On the other hand, I am very certain that abortion should be allowed in cases of sexual abuse, such as rape and incest, and if the mother's life is in danger. I approve of abortion being legalized because women will have abortions whether it is legal or not and when it is legal there are qualified professionals who do a decent job of it available rather than pretenders who are after the money and end up ruining lives and killing both mother and child.


However, abortion does bother me on many levels, primarily because I do feel that to an extent it will always be undeniably a form of murder. Perhaps murder in self-defense, but still murder. The reason I sometimes disapprove of making abortion available to anyone anytime is not because I disrespect their right to a choice – again, I disapprove of this privately but I would never vote against it or sabotage it – is because there are actually women out there who make that choice flippantly, and to me that is a violation of maternal responsibility and it shocks me. A friend of my aunt's is one such woman. She had an unwanted child and she aborted him/her because a baby would have severely interfered with her challenging job and soaring career ambitions.

Again, this woman made a choice, and I will not say she did not have the right to make that choice, nor will I say that the laws and medical services should have been unavailable for her to carry out that choice. My point here is that I am not 100% pro-abortion because of some irresponsible women who in my opinion end up abusing the power this law gives them. This is similar to saying that I'm not against presidency, but I'm against bad presidents who use their power irresponsibly and self-interestedly.

On the other hands, presidents choose to take responsibility for the nation and its people in the first place. Mothers who want an abortion generally have not had the opportunity to make that choice, so where irresponsibility begins and ends is a gray area and it depends entirely on the situation.

I agree with Asmodeus there – teach women what mothers are capable of. Let them be aware of what they'll really lose when they make that choice.


I would also like to add that I'm really impressed with how respectful everyone has been on this thread, it's a subject that carries weight with me ethically and I was really pleased to read through similar and opposing views alike without feeling threatened or ridiculed, instead I really felt like I was reading articulate and thoughtful words by people who care just as much about doing the right thing as I do. This was very special for me since I've practically never seen this online when it comes to such controversial topics. Just throwing it out there. Three huzzahs for Iwaku & its awesome community! XD


EDIT
I agree a lot with Kitti's post.


 
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I believe that in certain situations abortion is okay. No, I don't like the idea of killing an unborn child, but if someone was raped I believe that it's their choice whether they want to live with a reminder or just deal with it.
 
I know I made a big ol' guff about posting shit in response to all this fuckery but honest to biscuits I cannot. Just. No cannot even wat. But in its stead HAVE SOME PICTURES because fuck knows it would be more polite than the shit I woulda textually done.

For Diana & whoever did that "BUT WAHT ABOUT TEH MENZ?" Right-click > View Image > Click to enlarge.
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via http://www.facebook.com/pages/Filthy-little-feminist/225162150828452

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via http://thewomenscenters.com/

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p.s. .gif reactions illustrating my second attempt to read through the thread and respond like normal, non-inflammatory, helpful Iwaku member:

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p.s.s. PREGNANCY IS NOT A GODDAMN PUNISHMENT FOR HAVING SEX, THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH Y'ALL with this juvenile and puritanical attitude towards sex'n shit. Jayzest fuckin' kerrist, like motherfuckers right now are walkin' around and don't even fucking know how their genitals work. Muchless how they use them, use them with other people and how to not fuckin' shame other folk for doing whatever the fuck they like with them because they ain't as inhibited, repressed and ignorant about they own sexualities as they. Fuckin' vanilla-ass instant coffee taster's choice, probably thinking 50 Shades of Grey is some steamy hot erotica. Can't fuckin' figure out sex is a recreational activity folk do with one another and ain't lookin' to start families and that shit is OKAY. Worse even, they stay confusing people comfortable with expressing their sexualities with other folk in a non-committal way with these fuckin' phantom "slut" figure they scare each other in the dark with. Goddamn children, I swear to Buddha.

And these basic bitches talkin' 'bout like "Oh, they might be the one to cure cancer!" The actual fuck, there are already people dealing with that shit. Swearin' like the cure comes outta someone's ass and not fuckin' research done by a shitload of folk who know what they fuck they've been doing for 30+ years.
Like that shit couldn't also be the next Kony/Mussolini/Marcos neither. Then all that whinin' about fuckin' shit like the baby needs to live, people stay pushin' for placing rights on a literal blastocyst that a person who's been alive can't use, talkin' 'bout superseding the rights of the mother just so a motherfucker can gestate the full 9 months. Folk forgettin' shit like they're half their momma and half their daddy but neither fuckin' parent can demand or request you give them use of your body'n body parts so they can fuckin' go on living without your consent. Fetuses ain't even popped out the birth canal yet and folk tryin' to validate that shit. The fuck is people smokin'.

And goddamn all that muckin' ignorance trying to equivocate late term abortions with abortions done before gestation's been going past 24 weeks, when that shit is literally a clump of cells. Erryone wants to talk about "babies" ain't even born yet and the shitton who are already out here, livin', sufferin' and ain't no one campaigning as fuckin' go-hard for them. Like they don't even know adoption is not a goddamn alternative to abortion. Then they be tryin' to act clever all, "But see, you were born!" and it takes all the tranquility Buddha is capable of bestowing upon me to NOT backhand a fool in the eyes because they can't figure the fuck out that my momma chose to keep my ass.

...

Diana, homie I am sorry. I tried to be polite and couch this shit in nice language but all this fuckery needs to just end.

SO.

I'MMA NEED ALL Y'ALL TO PACK YOUR SHIT UP AND TAKE YOUR WHITE BELT FOOLISHNESS AND BOW THE FUCK OUTTA MY DOJO. MY SHARE TIME IS OVER.

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YEAH, AS CITIZENS WE SHOULD BE ALLOWED TO KILL THE HOMELESS, ALL THE GOOD-FOR-NOTHINGS, ALL THE CRIMINALS, ALL THE JOBLESS, ALL THE PEOPLE WHO AREN'T OUR CITIZENS BUT ARE USING OUR RESOURCES, oh, and the poor for being poor and indolent. BY DOING SO WE DO NOT HAVE TO BE RESPONSIBLE FOR THEIR EXPENDITURE, THEIR USE OF *OUR* THINGS, LIVING IN *OUR* LAND. THEY WON'T BECOME CRIMINALS EITHER OR ENDANGER OUR LIVES IF THEY'RE DEAD.

OH, BUT I'M NOT FOR GENOCIDE, I JUST WANT TO HAVE THIS OPTION, JUST IN CASE I DON'T LIKE A PARTICULAR GUY.

THIS IS OUR COUNTRY, WE PAY TAXES WE SHOULD HAVE THE RIGHT TO DO THIS.


GO JUDGE DREDD FUCK YEAH
 
I'm sure you made some good arguments there, Koori, but I stopped reading since it was clear that you despise the reader.

If you want your voice to be heard, don't be so angry about it. I know this is your carefully-crafted Iwaku persona and you're probably just trolling like everyone else who wants to have their cake and eat it. But this debate was doing just fine before you came in and tried to bully everyone.

Let he who is fully qualified cast the first opinion. I doubt you've had every form of pregnancy. I doubt you're part of a vaginal hivemind. I doubt you've achieved perfect separation of your rational mind from your knee-jerk emotions. NO ONE here is qualified to have ABSOLUTE OWNERSHIP of this debate.

Let people make up their own minds by going through the motions. Don't throw gifs and caps lock at them in an attempt to humiliate them into agreeing with you. How are people supposed to learn unless they discuss things, explore opinions and bounce ideas off each other? This thread is a learning process. Please respect that and don't just try to torpedo a debate you think others have no right to discuss. There's a word for that.




To get back on topic, I agree that a Licence to Breed is a good idea in principle. Law-makers have been able to work out what is safe on the highway, how to regulate the economy, how to design school curriculums, how to care for the elderly, and so forth. So why not parenthood? Obviously an entire lifetime of parenting is a VERY hard thing to chart and set a model for, but this should be seen as a bureaucratic challenge and not a stop sign. We've been bureaucratising life for centuries now, and as long as we get the right balance we don't have to worry about Orwellian dystopias. To believe that there is a dividing line between parenthood and the rest of regulated society is as good as saying foetuses have souls.

If a Licensing test was designed that hit the key fundamentals of parenthood, then this would be a step forward. And part of that Licence would be stipulated parameters on abortion - when it is permitted, how it is done, and what rights you have as a licenced mother.

A better quality of life for all parties.
 
Ugh, regulating to the point of 'permitted abortions' is so Orwellian.

But that's just my opinion - I believe Euthanasia is despicable as well, hence my distaste for abortion. Well, unless the guy asks to be killed, in that case I respect his freedom to do so... but I don't necessarily respect his choice. I don't think this should be forced on fetuses for the same reason we don't let children get married before they're 18.

But sure, 2000AD Megacity probably sounds like an awesome setting. go go go
 
Though I do agree with on that it really is the woman's choice, I also have more of a odd opinion on this (and I am not saying I am for it, or against it. I am neutral) I can say this much; the only time I see it as truly wrong is if you do it out of spite of having a gender you didn't want, doing it to spite a former lover.

I understand the cases in which it would kill the woman or the baby, it was a product of rape, or something extreme out of that. But to do it without even thinking about it first or giving yourself time I think is cruel. The man has no say in what happens to his unborn child, thus one of our downsides but if that's the case then we would not be with the right woman if they didn't want children and you did. If the man wants a child, and the other does not, then it is time for them to move on and prevent some serious hurtful actions. You catch flies better with honey then vinegar.