A poll about religion

[caѕтιel]

As being a Wiccan that gets bashed by wearing a pentacle and being called "Satanic" (Despite the fact I do not believe in the devil and do not worship evils, and the pentagram is the symbol - not a pentacle), religion has become a very touchy subject for me.

I couldn't see, without some adult supervision 24/7, that people wouldn't get offended by someone eventually. I think it's a good idea, but it would have to tread on thin ice for the majority of the time. Children are affected by their parents and become racist, sexist, et cetera because of what they're forced to listen. Maybe if we introduced this at younger ages so the open-mindedness would continue onto future years, this could work.

But I'm sure parents would complain about kids learning of Satanic religions, or really any uncommon pagan religion (which, again is ironic because on a technicality Christianity is pagan). That's the only downfall at the beginning - and it would most likely be something where the parent would have to agree on letting the child take the class, like sex ed.

Especially with religious symbols as mentioned before - it would be very nice for kids to know the difference between certain types of crosses, the Star of David, pentacles and pentagrams, whatever symbols of the religions may be, people wear these symbols to show pride and it's offensive to see that what some may call pride hasn't even been taught to yet by others.

 

[Fijoli]

Fijo Feels:

In order to debate and discuss religion, thick fat lines must separate Belief from truth, Fiction from fact, Science from faith.

In America, It's amazing, I often think about what if I had been born somewhere else. How different my life and myself would be. Here, I can go to the city and be in a replica of china and walk a few more blocks and be in Ireland. I can eat Persian Food and play chess with Russian elder neighbors who tell me Russian folklore. I can salute my countries flag, and wave Japan's in the other (Which I got kicked out of school for, but I did it and didn't get killed for it). I can move around this land making offerings to Buddha and pray on the rosary. No God can tell me where to go, what to love, or How to worship, that is my path and my journey to choose. I am a human being and in the grand scheme of it all, I want to experience it everything this life has to offer me.

I have exercised my freedoms Openly and freely since I was born and sure, Talking about Religion may not help people fear it less, but it's a start.
It's better than staying quiet, its better than keeping it all inside, it's better than hating, and killing, starting wars, burning people at the stake, flying planes into buildings and all the other crazy things religion has done to this human race... Perhaps One day, when we will be able to sit and talk to each other about Creationism and Evolution as equally important subjects, no one will have to go to extremes for their religion. The more we share of ourselves the more we have faith in ourselves, and other no matter what their beliefs are.

Someday we may see eye to eye and accept that religion, indeed, has done great good as much as it has done great evil. If religion wasn't at all apart of schools I would never know what Yom kippur is, or have started studying confusionism or ever read the Tao of piglet and the Te of Pooh. As much as we like to believe that christanity and Catholicism is dominant, it is only because that is what we see and we are not looking hard enough. The best of the best of anything will NEVER be right in front of your face, it's what Humbly waits for you to arrive there on your own that really means something and makes a difference through Loving you enough to let you Love yourself.

When I was in school, I didn't want to do anything but talk about The Renaissance, it's founding fathers, and The Religion that pounded away at the planet and nearly swallowed the earth whole. That fucking art, those paintings and sculptures, the symbolism, the truest form of that religion is in it's art. Fuck the literature, The ART changed the entire world Forever. The churches had so much god damned money the only way you were going to Survive as an artist was if you worked for the church, PROOF that this religion made Big bucks off of "forgiving sins", yet and still Da Vinci died Poor. >;[ I will always respect it even If I do not share in its beliefs, I see the facts through it's art that is has been around for a long time and it did then what it does now.

I'm all for discussing religion as a whole in school, all religions of the world, what they eat, how they dress, rituals, I want to know it all. Maybe then so many people won't be so damn afraid of religion and see it for exactly what it is; Someone else Culture to be as respected as your own.

Seriously The best thing about America is how many different religions are running around here, and how people choose to share it with the rest of the country by building their own temples or opening a restaurant. It's fantastic.

I say if I can so to an Indian restaurant and watch belly dancing women with a 6 month old sitting across the way dancing with them in his highchair and eat their food, I can sit a talk about their religion with them any day of the week and would have Loved to do it in school. Practicing and Experiencing are two entirely different things and Discussion is also an entirely different animal from the two.

In short, I say YAY! I would have LOVED to learn different prayers and discuss in school, I would Have LOVVVEEEDDDD it.

 

[heliacalRebirth]

War or not, religion is important. It effects everyone, and therefore should be discussed just as history is discussed.

 

[MurderDeathKill]

Nope; kids are assholes, letting them vent their stupidity will just make them think it's ok, especially without an adult around.

Source: 18 years as a human male child.

 

[Mad Scientist]

There are buildings that teach about religions, allow prayer and allow discussions about religions. It's called a CHURCH.

 

[Lady Sabine]

There are buildings that teach about religions, allow prayer and allow discussions about religions. It's called a CHURCH.

I want to attend a church that allows real discussion. O.O Sounds like a mythical creature to me.

 

[Mad Scientist]

I've been to three different churches. Catholic, Mormon and Baptist. They usually hold a "bible study" class where anyone can attend, usually new members, to discuss their questions about their religion, and how it differs from other denominations.

If any of you are curious about a religion, and after the meeting when everyone starts to leave you go up to the preacher and ask him to talk with you about said religion. Every time I've done this they would.

And religion is discussed in school. And how it affected certain people. Egyptian, Greek, Roman, Catholic, Paganism, Baptist, Native American, Christianity, the one with Odin and Thor..and Buddhism . I remember discussing these in my school numerous times. And how they affected these peoples cultures.

You can't tell me you guys and gals didn't learn about this stuff in school, right?

 

[Lady Sabine]

I've been to three different churches. Catholic, Mormon and Baptist. They usually hold a "bible study" class where anyone can attend, usually new members, to discuss their questions about their religion, and how it differs from other denominations.

If any of you are curious about a religion, and after the meeting when everyone starts to leave you go up to the preacher and ask him to talk with you about said religion. Every time I've done this they would.

And religion is discussed in school. And how it affected certain people. Egyptian, Greek, Roman, Catholic, Paganism, Baptist, Native American, Christianity, the one with Odin and Thor... . I remember discussing these in my school numerous times. And how they affected these peoples cultures.

You can't tell me you guys and gals didn't learn about this stuff in school, right?

Every church (out of three protestant) I've been to refuses to truly acknowledge other religions. They have a strong us (often excluding all other denominations and almost always excluding Catholicism) vs them ("pagans", "heathens", and "misguided souls") mentality. The person answering the questions has never know even the basics of other religions and have always been highly discriminatory. Maybe I've just been around bad preachers, but I think that guys who make money off of converting you to their beliefs probably aren't reliable sources of information on other beliefs. XD

Oh, and my old ISD specifically banned discussing how religion affected culture with a slight exception made for protestant Christianity. The Conquistadors believed in "God", but the textbooks never stated what faith they actually were. We never even covered the Greeks or the Romans, the only Egyptian God we heard about was Ra (yes, spelled that way) and that the Egyptians were monotheistic.
Check out the current textbook board for the state of Texas. You'll realize that a teacher wishing to give an actual education will not only have no support from the textbook, but might have to directly contradict it.

 

[Mad Scientist]

This is crazy. If that is the case, I'd say the only hope is one's own research.

Mr. Atkinson was a very open-minded and outgoing history teacher. I assumed what he taught was normal standards, but I guess not. :(

 

[Lady Sabine]

If your teacher is both engaging and informed, you can pretty safely assume they are rare and unlikely.

 

[Kitty]

School is supposed to be for education, there are religious classes at least in my school where religion is to be discussed. Outside of that, no. You are legally allowed to pray and ask people questions about religion if you want to. If you asked me about religion, Id say I'm all set with that god-awful argument. (Excuse my pun) But maybe other people do want to talk about it, talk about it at lunch if you want to. Join a religious studies class. We do not need 'times of silence' as any religious person can bow their head and pray without the whole school having to be silent for it. I respect religions and religious people, that's fine and dandy. But currently it is legal to pray and it's legal to show your religious freedoms, and people who are not religious do not have to show any. It should not be mandatory to have these discussions, but it should be legal and able. Which it is. I'm taking a broad series of courses that is getting me ready for the work force. Math, Reading, History, Science. It is stuff that they have deemed "every person needs to know in order to function well in society" religion is not one of these things, as there are many atheists who chose to not bother with religion at all and are perfectly fine in society. History briefly covers religion, but doesn't go in depth more then mentioning it and maybe a few morals or values which is why people acted the way they did during that time. I feel like history wise there is no sense in going deeper because it is simply not important. If you want to learn, go to a church, use the internet, you guys are smarter than the average bear.

 

[Lady Sabine]

I feel like history wise there is no sense in going deeper because it is simply not important.

Amateur historian here physically facepalming. If you don't think that religion is important to history, you are the reason that education about religions is necessary. ;_;

 

[Fijoli]

Ocha is right, we have to accept the fact the religions, all of them are important, especially if you live in America.

We are becoming less and less spiritual and more like robots, regurgitating what our friends and parents tell us.

If we discussed more of everything in general, not just religions, so to say, I think the age of Aquarius May just Dawn for us yet, and with it a new way of learning and a new kind of tolerance we can carry for others and ourselves.

sorry, that diverse education happens in schools first before we are internet savy. Also it might teach people how to have real debates and form their own opinions. Discussions in schools is just prime and raw, unlike the distance of the internet, some religions don't have churches.

 

[Kitty]

"Less and less spiritual" I can be spiritual, happy, and creative without religion. Public schooling is government mandated, the government is separated church and state for a reason. Religion is important in history, but the specifics of religion is not important in history. I do not need to know any of the bible stories to know that women were treated like property because the way the bible was interpreted at the time. That's all I need to know. I don't need to know the specifics or stories of any of that. If you are an 'amateur historian' then that is your hobby, not mine. Im a makeup artist and hobbist in astronomy but I do not think either need to be mandated to be taught.
School doesn't have classes to teach you about relationships and how you act around people, you learn it on your own. Your religion is a relationship between whatever higher power and you, you learn it on your own. Mandating public schooling to do that would be against the constitution anyway, which is why it is currently not mandated.

 

[Hatsune Candy]

My family has always been a Christian family, I am, however, not Christian, I am agnostic. And the one thing that just really bothers me about my family is how unaccepting they are of other religions. They want everyone they meet and everyone they don't meet to be the same religion they are and they don't like it when they decide not to be. As you may have guessed, I haven't told them about my agnostic beliefs yet, and likely never will.

Anyways, this is relevant because people don't ever just casual talk about religion outside of church, or at all, really. Unless they're trying to force someone to covert. Now that doesn't go for everyone, I realize, but in my experience that's generally what happens. I believe that if we allowed kids to casually discuss religion early on in life, they might be more willing to accept that other people believe in other things and they might be more respectful of other religions.

Honestly, my biggest irk with religion is when people are rude and disrespectful about it.

 

[Lady Sabine]

Public schooling is government mandated, the government is separated church and state for a reason. Religion is important in history, but the specifics of religion is not important in history. I do not need to know any of the bible stories to know that women were treated like property because the way the bible was interpreted at the time.

School doesn't have classes to teach you about relationships and how you act around people, you learn it on your own. Your religion is a relationship between whatever higher power and you, you learn it on your own. Mandating public schooling to do that would be against the constitution anyway, which is why it is currently not mandated.

Oh, wow. O.O Honey.

I don't think you understand the concept of "separation of church and state" at all. Like, "I really hope you haven't finished middle school yet" levels of misunderstanding. If you've managed to get through eight years of education without anyone telling you the real meaning I seriously suggest you write to your school board and complain. But, here's the Wikipedia article. Since you're so fond of independent study, go ahead and educate yourself: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separation_of_church_and_state#United_States
You'll notice that the very second sentence says that the phrase never actually appears in the constitution... which I think citizens kind of ought to know. It's one thing if you don't want to learn the bible, but staying that ignorant of our own constitution strikes me as a terrible idea. Put simply, under current US law, it is perfectly legal to teach about any and every religion in school. It is perfectly legal to include "under God" in the pledge. It is perfectly legal to have crosses hanging in public buildings or nativity scenes in public parks. The only restriction is that the government may not support one organized faith above any other. So saying "under the Flying Spaghetti Monster" is equally fine. If a cross is provided and paid for, then a star of David must also be provided and paid for on request. If a Muslim organization wants a holiday artwork of their own next to the nativity, that must be permitted. So, as long as a school neither unduly emphasizes nor funds nor attempts to convert students, you absolutely 100% can be required to learn bible stories.

Now, I suppose at your school it's perfectly acceptable to punch other kids in the face and cuss them out, right? Because school isn't there to teach you how to behave?

Anyway, back on topic. Yes, you absolutely do need to understand the tenets of a religion to understand why people do what they do. The fact that a lot of Christianity is based around a relationship consisting of the dominant and submissive is definitely relevant. The ideas of fathers and children, man and wife, shepherd and sheep... you need all of that and more to understand the deep-seated matters of power and control that are present in Christianity that cause a lot of conflicts, including women's rights and slavery.
You also need to understand that, in a lot of religions, you cannot learn it on your own. Here's a prime example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church
To the one point two billion Catholics alone, your definition of religion would completely butcher their church, beliefs, and traditions. You are the exact reason why more education is necessary. Your ignorance right now is just being vented on an online forum, but what if you were voting on this? What if you were on a school board or city council? It scares me that you seem to think that just because you don't want to learn something means that it's not necessary. Personally, I never wanted to learn division, but in hindsight I'm glad someone forced me to get the basics down.

 

[Kitty]

I'm not going to bother with you if the first thing you say is insult, I will read nothing else of your post.
I am entitled to my opinions as you are yours, it would not be a good idea and it has been taken out of school for a good reason. It will never be either, so it's nothing for me to even get worked up about or bother with.
Elliot who used both the constitution and the separation of church and state comments in court won prayer out of school. As people who want to learn about religions, it is open. For those who don't wish to learn, they don't have to. That how it should and will continue to be, at least for me. Thank "god". As high school enough without more bullshit shoved down our throats.

 

[Lady Sabine]

I'm not going to bother with you if the first thing you say is insult, I will read nothing else of your post.
I am entitled to my opinions as you are yours, it would not be a good idea and it has been taken out of school for a good reason. It will never be either, so it's nothing for me to even get worked up about or bother with.
Elliot who used both the constitution and the separation of church and state comments in court won prayer out of school. As people who want to learn about religions, it is open. For those who don't wish to learn, they don't have to. That how it should and will continue to be, at least for me. Thank "god". As high school enough without more bullshit shoved down our throats.

I'm not sure I understand where the insult is. Being ignorant simply means you're uninformed (I couldn't think of a better word at the time and you don't seem to be arguing the accuracy), and I'm pretty sure one of the goals of this thread is to spread information... even if you should have learned that information by eighth grade according to most national standards. My point in all of this is that it's basic knowledge, not something complicated or heavy. If you find your own lack of knowledge insulting, why don't you learn something instead of blaming the person who pointed out the flaws in your argument? I'd be happy to show you some resources to inform yourself about the constitution or other government topics- there's a lot out there.

You clearly don't understand the nuance of the court cases. Mandated prayer is in no way equatable to unbiased education. You seem to know enough about the situation to be offended, but not enough to know what to get offended over. You have the right to an opinion, but facts and opinions are not the same thing. I would fight to the death for your right to protest the teaching of religion in public school, but that doesn't mean I won't call you out for stating things that are just plain incorrect.

In any case, I hope you learn more about the situation so you can make an informed and relevant argument. ^^

 

[Kitty]

I'm offended that you said I didn't deserve to go past middle school, I am not offended on the topic. The topic in which you nor I are correct in as it is a debate. The goal of this poll is not to spread information but to gather everyones opinion. My opinion is that it should be optional and not mandated. Not to argue. Seperation of church and state is also literal separation of church and state. The actual term "separation of church and state" was not used in the constitution, yes. But the first amedment says "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof...." for the record. Meaning no laws against any religious or non religious exercises can be made within the law. Which is separation of church and state. It has been interpreted differently but meaning the government has no say in what religion you are and will treat all religious and non religious people the same within the law. Im not stupid, I do know some things on the subject. Am I a professional? No. I'm also still in high school, and actually writing these in Advanced Communications II which is why some grammar or spelling mistakes may be present. And I may be wrong about certain things, but it still doesn't change my mind that to force anyone to learn anything is going to do nothing at all. Especially such a controversial topic. I still believe there is a place for religion and a place for education. Though I do appreciate your stance to get more information, I do not appreciate you challenging my education. I am a smart individual who spends a lot of time in school. There is a lot of pressure in my family to do well, I am an honors student.

And in any case, I already added my vote to the poll and you yours, there is no point in arguing it.

 

[Lady Sabine]

I'm offended that you said I didn't deserve to go past middle school, I am not offended on the topic. The topic in which you nor I are correct in as it is a debate. The goal of this poll is not to spread information but to gather everyones opinion. My opinion is that it should be optional and not mandated. Not to argue. Seperation of church and state is also literal separation of church and state. The actual term "separation of church and state" was not used in the constitution, yes. But the first amedment says "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof...." for the record. Meaning no laws against any religious or non religious exercises can be made within the law. Which is separation of church and state. It has been interpreted differently but meaning the government has no say in what religion you are and will treat all religious and non religious people the same within the law. Im not stupid, I do know some things on the subject. Am I a professional? No. I'm also still in high school, and actually writing these in Advanced Communications II which is why some grammar or spelling mistakes may be present. And I may be wrong about certain things, but it still doesn't change my mind that to force anyone to learn anything is going to do nothing at all. Especially such a controversial topic. I still believe there is a place for religion and a place for education. Though I do appreciate your stance to get more information, I do not appreciate you challenging my education. I am a smart individual who spends a lot of time in school. There is a lot of pressure in my family to do well, I am an honors student.

And in any case, I already added my vote to the poll and you yours, there is no point in arguing it.

Well, yes. There is a point in arguing it. Debate helps us to develop our own opinions and fosters understanding of all opinions. If you are unable or unwilling to defend yours that's a different matter entirely from it being pointless.

Now, let's clear one thing up: I never said you didn't deserve it. I said I sincerely hoped that you hadn't completed eighth grade, or else the educational system had failed you in a serious way. I don't expect people to educate themselves on important topics (like the constitution) outside of school, I expect schools to, shockingly enough, actually teach their students useful information. I think you should write to your school board and request a change in the system, since if you are representative of your peers the social science/government/history classes need some serious improvement. :c

Now, the first amendment, in fact, allows for restriction of exercises in numerous cases. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Exercise_Clause
Notable examples of this are the government forbidding polygamous marriage in the Mormon faith or animal sacrifice with Santeria. If the exercise of a religion violates other laws, it cannot be allowed- this exists in case someone decides that their religion allows them to shoot the president, or something similarly foolish.
As for "separation of church and state", this does not mean that the government cannot get involved in religious issues. What it really means is that no church can control the government, nor can the government mandate religious practices. While it implies that they must remain completely different, this is a common misunderstanding. As for the same treatment, well, yes and no. Everyone's rights are guaranteed and preference can not be shown, but equality is implied and a matter of interpretation.

Regardless or how intelligent you are, how much time you spend in school, or how many honors courses you take, you still can be and are wrong about certain facts. I don't know why you're so resistant to the idea- there's no shame in being ignorant, only in refusing to learn. :/